frapi07 wrote on 12.06.2023 at 17:00: The argument with the employees is perhaps misunderstood. Possibly Gamble1 means the industry. I don't think supporters or employees of OCs are terminated just because German players sue back their losses. I think the "good" casinos will take a hit. I mean the kind of casinos that do business in illegality, but unlike other casinos tend to be the good ones. Every casino has its shortcomings and it is impossible to find one that is perfect. Winz has good Bonuses and is customer friendly, but has to improve in terms of player protection. Then there are other casinos (Platin), where spongy rules stand and that is also not changed. Nevertheless, I think that exactly such casinos as Winz will bear a loss from it. Just like the players who actually just want to play, because many casinos will then withdraw from the German market and the sufferer is just the good player. As a result, such players will only have the opportunity to gamble in such rip-off casinos like Tipico Casino, where the RTP is underground. The offer is a rip-off, worse than Platin and the worst thing is that it is considered legal from the state side.
But yes, I do not feel sorry for the casinos that have annoyed the players with long Verification processes, have spammed with offers or have made unnecessary requirements (eg: photo where you show your ID where you can also see the street sign + house number).
But these are two different things.
And yes, the offer will deteriorate. But the blame for this is not the players who demand their money back, but the German state, which makes the laws and has no idea how to become competitive. The casinos are also to blame, as they continue to operate illegally.
And my opinion on whether and how casinos should be allowed is something else again. I am basically for a free market, although I would like a casino-wide lock.
The only thing that goes against the grain for me is to raise the moral finger at players who demand their money back. They are just exercising their right and it is perfectly logical that many do that. They are only a symptom of the whole and not the problem.
Again, they go to court and get justice there. This means that both the German state and the EU see it the same way as the player. So if anyone is destroying the casino industry, it's an amateurishly implemented German gambling license and foreign casinos that operate illegally and have always done what they want (cue verification harassment, bonus traps, poor Player protection, etc.)
And now even the most moronic arguments are brought out, so that you can continue to step on the players on it. "Doesn't anyone think about the employees" Of course, a player in Debt doesn't think about the support staff and certainly not about the "general casino industry" and therefore forgoes €50,000 that could theoretically pull him back out of the mud. Do you really think someone thinks then that they better not ask for their money back because otherwise the poor casino industry might have a bad time?
And yes, there are also many who reclaim and then Deposit again somewhere else. So the circle closes again. In the end, a large part of the money ends up in the casinos anyway. And after the casino industry, times exaggeratedly said, anyway only about 4 people belongs, everything is good again. Alone if I look at how many MGA and Curacao casinos N1 operates, or Gammix, then the money goes out there and in there again.
So, to make a long story short. To condemn the players for clawbacks is completely out of line. We all have something to do with casinos here and just talk about it more or less value-free. But, especially with casinos in general, one could raise such a moral finger. But hardly anyone does that. Therefore, one should leave that then already right with the players remain. Otherwise, we can discuss how many suicides are caused by casinos, or how many marriages and families are destroyed, and so on. But strangely enough, I never read anything about that here. But the main thing is that the outrage society can once again vent their frustration here, about any players who make use of their right (and I do not mean you now).
PS: Winz.io is not available anyway, because no MGA license.
Falcon wrote on 13.06.2023 at 01:48:
But these are two different things.
And yes, the offer will deteriorate. But the culprits are not the players who demand their money back, but the German state that makes the laws and has no idea how to compete. The casinos are also to blame, as they continue to operate illegally.
And my opinion on whether and how casinos should be allowed is something else again. I am basically for a free market, although I would like a casino-wide lock.
The only thing that goes against the grain for me is to raise the moral finger at players who demand their money back. They are just exercising their right and it is perfectly logical that many do that. They are only a symptom of the whole and not the problem.
Again, they go to court and get justice there. This means that both the German state and the EU see it the same way as the player. So if anyone is destroying the casino industry, it's an amateurishly implemented German gambling license and foreign casinos that operate illegally and have always done what they want (cue Verification harassment, bonus traps, poor Player protection, etc.)
And now even the most moronic arguments are brought out, so that you can continue to step on the players on it. "Doesn't anyone think about the employees" Of course, a player in Debt doesn't think about the support staff and certainly not about the "general casino industry" and therefore forgoes €50,000 that could theoretically pull him back out of the mud. Do you really think someone thinks then that they better not ask for their money back because otherwise the poor casino industry might have a bad time?
And yes, there are also many who reclaim and then Deposit again somewhere else. So the circle closes again. In the end, a large part of the money ends up in the casinos anyway. And after the casino industry, times exaggeratedly said, anyway only about 4 people belongs, everything is good again. Alone if I look at how many MGA and Curacao casinos N1 operates, or Gammix, then the money goes out there and in there again.
So, to make a long story short. To condemn the players for clawbacks is completely out of line. We all have something to do with casinos here and just talk about it more or less value-free. But, especially with casinos in general, one could raise such a moral finger. But hardly anyone does that. Therefore, one should leave that then already right with the players remain. Otherwise, we can discuss how many suicides are caused by casinos, or how many marriages and families are destroyed, etc. But strangely enough, I never read anything about that here. But the main thing is that the outrage society can once again vent their frustration here, about any players who make use of their right (and I do not mean you now).
PS: Winz.io is not tangible anyway, because no MGA license.
Morally, neither is better or worse off because there are usually only two points :
1)
Casino 1 tries everything to give the player fun and entertainment pays out fairly and makes no unnecessary stress
Casino 2 f**ks the player with stupid Bonuses and terms and conditions and does everything to not have to pay out
2)
Player 1 asks for his money back and seeks help because he is totally in debt and just wants a second chance
Player 2 demands his money back and even makes himself punishable because he carries it to the next illegal OC although he got his money back by the sudden inspiration of illegality
Since no one can stand up and say but my side is morally fully ok ...... shit it is not in the end there are criticisms on both sides
Edit: Apart from that now independent of the topic just because you would get right in court there are still cases where it is simply not appropriate to enforce this because I would not sue a pensioner who steals a roll from me out of hunger in the store.... clearly here is an inappropriate comparison but just to clarify having right and getting right does not always mean it is always fully ok to enforce it
Falcon wrote on 13.06.2023 at 01:48:
But these are two different things.
And yes, the offer will deteriorate. But the culprits are not the players who demand their money back, but the German state that makes the laws and has no idea how to compete. The casinos are also to blame, as they continue to operate illegally.
And my opinion on whether and how casinos should be allowed is something else again. I am basically for a free market, although I would like a casino-wide lock.
I agree with you there, but look what has happened in the last few years. As of July 2021 a few have left the German market (twin and a few others). That is as you wrote it owed the German state. But there were a few other casinos that only after a wave of lawsuits have said goodbye to the German market. The blame for this lies with the gamblers who sued the casinos and were successful. Thus, my argument also has a certain validity.
Falcon wrote on 13.06.2023 at 01:48:
The only thing that goes against the grain for me is to raise the moral finger at gamblers who demand their money back. They're just exercising their right and isn't it perfectly logical that many do that. They are only a symptom of the whole and not the problem.
Again, they go to court and get justice there. This means that both the German state and the EU see it the same way as the player. So if anyone is destroying the casino industry, it's an amateurishly implemented German gambling license and foreign casinos that operate illegally and have always done what they want (cue Verification harassment, bonus traps, poor Player protection, etc.)
And now even the most moronic arguments are brought out, so that you can continue to step on the players on it. "Doesn't anyone think about the employees" Of course, a player in Debt doesn't think about the support staff and certainly not about the "general casino industry" and therefore forgoes €50,000 that could theoretically pull him back out of the mud. Do you really think someone thinks then that he better not ask for his money back because otherwise the poor casino industry might have a bad time?
And yes, there are also many who reclaim and then Deposit again somewhere else. So the circle closes again. In the end, a large part of the money ends up in the casinos anyway. And after the casino industry, times exaggeratedly said, anyway only about 4 people belongs, everything is good again. Alone if I look at how many MGA and Curacao casinos N1 operates, or Gammix, then the money goes out there and in there again.
So, to make a long story short. To condemn the players for clawbacks is completely out of line. We all have something to do with casinos here and just talk about it more or less value-free. But, especially with casinos in general, one could raise such a moral finger. But hardly anyone does that. Therefore, one should leave that then already right with the players remain. Otherwise, we can discuss how many suicides are caused by casinos, or how many marriages and families are destroyed, and so on. But strangely enough, I never read anything about that here. But the main thing is that the outrage society can once again vent their frustration here, about any players who make use of their right (and I do not mean you now).
PS: Winz.io is not tangible anyway, because no MGA license.
Yes, I understand that too. Personally, I don't care if someone does it and I don't judge anyone for it. I would sign that with the German state, if the state would be fair. But they are not. It's just my opinion, but NOW that the gambling treaty is in place, these lawsuits are blessed with success. Before that there was hardly any hope. Why is that? Because it was not regulated before? Partly yes, partly not, because you can't sue anyone in Malta just because they don't follow certain rules, while in German casinos you can put countless 500 bills in the machine and gamble it away within a few minutes. It's like kicking a student out of school because he smokes on the school grounds while you smoke up the teachers' lounge. Either all rules apply to everyone or they don't - in this case, the ban on smoking on school grounds. That's exactly why I don't like these rulings. They simply want to destroy the competition, nothing more. Whoever believes that the courts have now received sympathy or understanding for this is, in my opinion, very much mistaken.
Falke wrote on 06/13/2023 at 01:48: And yes, the offer will deteriorate. But the fault is not the players who demand their money back, but the German state that makes the laws and has no idea how to become competitive
The state knows exactly what it is doing. The strangulation of the private sector with increasingly absurd, gambling-unfriendly regulations, that is not new. The current gambling treaty is just the culmination of it all.
Otherwise, you're right, the moral club because of the clawbacks here to pull is just absurd.
gamble1 wrote on 06/13/2023 at 04:11 PM:
Morally neither is better or worse off because there are usually only two points :
1)
Casino 1 tries everything to give the player fun and entertainment pays out fair and does not make unnecessary stress
Casino 2 f**ks the player with stupid Bonuses and terms and conditions and does everything to not have to pay out
2)
Player 1 asks for his money back and seeks help because he is totally in Debt and just wants a second chance
Player 2 demands his money back and even makes himself punishable because he carries it to the next illegal OC although he got his money back by the sudden inspiration of illegality
Since no one can stand up and say but my side is morally fully ok ...... shit it is not in the end there are criticisms on both sides
Edit: Apart from that now independent of the topic just because one would get right in court there are still cases where it is simply not appropriate to enforce this because I would not sue a pensioner who steals a roll from me out of hunger in the store.... of course here is an inappropriate comparison but just to make it clear that being right and getting right does not always mean it is always fully ok to enforce it
Sure, I agree with you. That's what I mean by saying that you should generally stop bringing morals into play when talking about casinos. I'm just annoyed by the many comments in which the players are stepped on, who demand their money back, as if they were now doing something very bad.
@frapi
It's not the fault of those who demand their money back. They can only reclaim their money because of the state and the legislation. The fact that many then do that is completely logical. As I said, whether the laws are now so right or whether it would be better if the casinos could operate everywhere, is a moot point. But the legal situation is now once as it is. Some casinos withdraw, some stay anyway.
And that the German casinos are complete garbage, we agree anyway. Partly an RTP of 86% and the 5 seconds rule. And then a game selection where every game box offers more choice.
But what I would really be interested in is why many casinos exclude some countries. I mean, they obviously don't care about national legislation. Why do they exclude so many countries anyway?
Sure, I agree with you. That's what I mean about generally stopping bringing morals into play when it comes to casinos. I'm just annoyed by the many comments where people step on the players who demand their money back, as if they were doing something really bad now.
@frapi
It's not the fault of those who demand their money back. They can only reclaim their money because of the state and the legislation. The fact that many then do that is completely logical. As I said, whether the laws are now so right or whether it would be better if the casinos could operate everywhere, is a moot point. But the legal situation is now once as it is. Some casinos withdraw, some stay anyway.
And that the German casinos are complete garbage, we agree anyway. Partly an RTP of 86% and the 5 seconds rule. And then a game selection where every game box offers more choice.
But what I would really be interested in is why many casinos exclude some countries. I mean, they obviously don't care about national legislation. So why do they exclude so many countries anyway?
Yes, you are right. You can look at it elsewhere: if there is a change in the law, you can claim back money retroactively and the other side doesn't want to pay, then you are left with legal action. That is normal and nothing reprehensible about it. What annoys me personally and will annoy me is that the judges completely ignore the intention of the players. This is just stupid and gives people a free pass to speculate with funds. Even if I understand that it is illegal and the legal situation makes a recovery possible I have to disagree with that.
Yes, that they are garbage will agree with you every gambler
Yes, you are right about that. You can look at it elsewhere: if there is a change in the law, you can claim back money retroactively and the other side doesn't want to pay, then you are left with legal action. That is normal and nothing reprehensible about it. What annoys me personally and will annoy me is that the judges completely ignore the intention of the players. This is just stupid and gives people a free pass to speculate with funds. Even if I understand that it is illegal and the legal situation makes a recovery possible I have to disagree with that.
Yes, that they are garbage will agree with you every gambler
Good question. I honestly do not know.
Well, the intention of the players does not really play a big role. In the end, it's only about the fact that the contract is not valid. I can't tell you exactly how it is in Germany (but it will be similar). In Austria, there is even a ruling from the Supreme Court that you can also reclaim money if you knew about the illegality.
So the bottom line is that anyone can Deposit in MGA casinos, hope for a win, and if it goes wrong, get the money back. Sounds absurd, but this is actually the legal situation.
I think this is to push the other casinos completely out of the market, so that the state casino can expand its monopoly position. Network blocks etc. are hardly legally possible and also much too costly, so they just decided on this method.
It is clear that many players take advantage of this "offer". You could also say that players in Austria play with a 120% RTP.
I thought Platincasino.de got the German license? Why are there so many providers on the page now and there is nothing about GGL at the bottom? Or am I confusing something?
hustlehoff wrote on 15.06.2023 at 17:31: I thought Platincasino.de got the German license? Why are there so many providers on the site now and there is nothing about GGL at the bottom? Or am I confusing something?
I also wondered. Was today exceptionally times on the page because of the strange by mail announced 50 summer evening spins, which were in Legacy of Dead. Then I noticed this sudden abundance of providers. Previously, there was since the expulsion from "com" felt only 17 slots or so.
Sue Platincasino?
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But these are two different things.
And yes, the offer will deteriorate. But the blame for this is not the players who demand their money back, but the German state, which makes the laws and has no idea how to become competitive. The casinos are also to blame, as they continue to operate illegally.
And my opinion on whether and how casinos should be allowed is something else again. I am basically for a free market, although I would like a casino-wide lock.
The only thing that goes against the grain for me is to raise the moral finger at players who demand their money back. They are just exercising their right and it is perfectly logical that many do that. They are only a symptom of the whole and not the problem.
Again, they go to court and get justice there. This means that both the German state and the EU see it the same way as the player. So if anyone is destroying the casino industry, it's an amateurishly implemented German gambling license and foreign casinos that operate illegally and have always done what they want (cue verification harassment, bonus traps, poor Player protection, etc.)
And now even the most moronic arguments are brought out, so that you can continue to step on the players on it. "Doesn't anyone think about the employees" Of course, a player in Debt doesn't think about the support staff and certainly not about the "general casino industry" and therefore forgoes €50,000 that could theoretically pull him back out of the mud. Do you really think someone thinks then that they better not ask for their money back because otherwise the poor casino industry might have a bad time?
And yes, there are also many who reclaim and then Deposit again somewhere else. So the circle closes again. In the end, a large part of the money ends up in the casinos anyway. And after the casino industry, times exaggeratedly said, anyway only about 4 people belongs, everything is good again. Alone if I look at how many MGA and Curacao casinos N1 operates, or Gammix, then the money goes out there and in there again.
So, to make a long story short. To condemn the players for clawbacks is completely out of line. We all have something to do with casinos here and just talk about it more or less value-free. But, especially with casinos in general, one could raise such a moral finger. But hardly anyone does that. Therefore, one should leave that then already right with the players remain. Otherwise, we can discuss how many suicides are caused by casinos, or how many marriages and families are destroyed, and so on. But strangely enough, I never read anything about that here. But the main thing is that the outrage society can once again vent their frustration here, about any players who make use of their right (and I do not mean you now).
PS: Winz.io is not available anyway, because no MGA license.
This post has been translated automatically
Sue Platincasino?
Nobody has liked this post so far
Morally, neither is better or worse off because there are usually only two points :
1)
Casino 1 tries everything to give the player fun and entertainment pays out fairly and makes no unnecessary stress
Casino 2 f**ks the player with stupid Bonuses and terms and conditions and does everything to not have to pay out
2)
Player 1 asks for his money back and seeks help because he is totally in debt and just wants a second chance
Player 2 demands his money back and even makes himself punishable because he carries it to the next illegal OC although he got his money back by the sudden inspiration of illegality
Since no one can stand up and say but my side is morally fully ok ...... shit it is not in the end there are criticisms on both sides
Edit: Apart from that now independent of the topic just because you would get right in court there are still cases where it is simply not appropriate to enforce this because I would not sue a pensioner who steals a roll from me out of hunger in the store.... clearly here is an inappropriate comparison but just to clarify having right and getting right does not always mean it is always fully ok to enforce it
This post has been translated automatically
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I agree with you there, but look what has happened in the last few years. As of July 2021 a few have left the German market (twin and a few others). That is as you wrote it owed the German state. But there were a few other casinos that only after a wave of lawsuits have said goodbye to the German market. The blame for this lies with the gamblers who sued the casinos and were successful. Thus, my argument also has a certain validity.
Yes, I understand that too. Personally, I don't care if someone does it and I don't judge anyone for it. I would sign that with the German state, if the state would be fair. But they are not. It's just my opinion, but NOW that the gambling treaty is in place, these lawsuits are blessed with success. Before that there was hardly any hope. Why is that? Because it was not regulated before? Partly yes, partly not, because you can't sue anyone in Malta just because they don't follow certain rules, while in German casinos you can put countless 500 bills in the machine and gamble it away within a few minutes. It's like kicking a student out of school because he smokes on the school grounds while you smoke up the teachers' lounge. Either all rules apply to everyone or they don't - in this case, the ban on smoking on school grounds. That's exactly why I don't like these rulings. They simply want to destroy the competition, nothing more. Whoever believes that the courts have now received sympathy or understanding for this is, in my opinion, very much mistaken.
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The state knows exactly what it is doing. The strangulation of the private sector with increasingly absurd, gambling-unfriendly regulations, that is not new. The current gambling treaty is just the culmination of it all.
Otherwise, you're right, the moral club because of the clawbacks here to pull is just absurd.
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Sure, I agree with you. That's what I mean by saying that you should generally stop bringing morals into play when talking about casinos. I'm just annoyed by the many comments in which the players are stepped on, who demand their money back, as if they were now doing something very bad.
@frapi
It's not the fault of those who demand their money back. They can only reclaim their money because of the state and the legislation. The fact that many then do that is completely logical. As I said, whether the laws are now so right or whether it would be better if the casinos could operate everywhere, is a moot point. But the legal situation is now once as it is. Some casinos withdraw, some stay anyway.
And that the German casinos are complete garbage, we agree anyway. Partly an RTP of 86% and the 5 seconds rule. And then a game selection where every game box offers more choice.
But what I would really be interested in is why many casinos exclude some countries. I mean, they obviously don't care about national legislation. Why do they exclude so many countries anyway?
This post has been translated automatically
Sue Platincasino?
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Yes, you are right. You can look at it elsewhere: if there is a change in the law, you can claim back money retroactively and the other side doesn't want to pay, then you are left with legal action. That is normal and nothing reprehensible about it. What annoys me personally and will annoy me is that the judges completely ignore the intention of the players. This is just stupid and gives people a free pass to speculate with funds. Even if I understand that it is illegal and the legal situation makes a recovery possible I have to disagree with that.
Yes, that they are garbage will agree with you every gambler
Good question. I honestly do not know.
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Well, the intention of the players does not really play a big role. In the end, it's only about the fact that the contract is not valid. I can't tell you exactly how it is in Germany (but it will be similar). In Austria, there is even a ruling from the Supreme Court that you can also reclaim money if you knew about the illegality.
So the bottom line is that anyone can Deposit in MGA casinos, hope for a win, and if it goes wrong, get the money back. Sounds absurd, but this is actually the legal situation.
I think this is to push the other casinos completely out of the market, so that the state casino can expand its monopoly position. Network blocks etc. are hardly legally possible and also much too costly, so they just decided on this method.
It is clear that many players take advantage of this "offer". You could also say that players in Austria play with a 120% RTP.
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Sue Platincasino?
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I also wondered. Was today exceptionally times on the page because of the strange by mail announced 50 summer evening spins, which were in Legacy of Dead. Then I noticed this sudden abundance of providers. Previously, there was since the expulsion from "com" felt only 17 slots or so.
This post has been translated automatically