Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
15th Feb. 2024, at 09:59 am CET#31
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Butterbrezel wrote on 14.02.2024 at 17:16: langhansisch mathematisch
I know....am a bit strange sometimes Very worth reading, by the way, how factually differentiated the topic is viewed and argued here. It's a pleasure to read along
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
15th Feb. 2024, at 12:14 pm CET#32
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Pat1991 wrote on 02/15/2024 02:16 AM:
Gates has multis that add up within the FS, though. Book of Ra, on the other hand, has a special symbol in the FS, "normal" spins (at least that's what it looks like) with a "special payout", and the option to retrigger. And that's about it.
A much simpler system than Gates. What's more, symbols with a high "special payout" appear much less frequently than the dirty rest.
Again, I'm not disputing the fact that the FS win is already diced when it is triggered. I just can't see any evidence of this anywhere.
It's just difficult as a layman. There will probably also be differences in the programming.
For example, I don't believe that All Slots work in the same way: a Win factor is randomly determined, the higher the less likely. At the same time, it is determined whether the win occurs in free games, in the base game or during a random feature. And then the whole thing is bluntly animated. That's how I imagine it with slots like jammin jars, for example. Two streamers once received exactly the same win factor with exactly the same free game sequence. It then became clear relatively quickly that the slot worked more like a scratch card and that thousands of different winning sequences were programmed to match the win factor (at least that's how I read it back then at cm or something 😄. I don't want to claim that this is 100 percent the case).
On the other hand, there may also be the possibility that the rng throws out a sequence of numbers that determines the images on the reel. This is often described in guides.
But even then, in free spins, this sequence of numbers would simply be determined in a fraction of a second for all spins and the win would be fixed.
So I think the function is probably a bit more complex than the rng just knocks out a factor and visualizes it in one way or another (even if I've assumed it that way before)
But I think it's irrefutable that you know what you win when you press it... 😄
Can't you get a statement on this from a Provider? Höllegames, for example, is in contact with them.
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
15th Feb. 2024, at 03:24 pm CET#33
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Stromberg wrote on February 15, 2024 at 12:14 pm:
It's just difficult as a layman. There will probably also be differences in the programming.
For example, I don't believe that All Slots work according to the pattern: a Win factor is determined randomly, the higher the less likely. At the same time, it is determined whether the win occurs in free games, in the base game or during a random feature. And then the whole thing is bluntly animated. That's how I imagine it with slots like jammin jars, for example. Two streamers once received exactly the same win factor with exactly the same free game sequence. It then became clear relatively quickly that the slot worked more like a scratch card and that thousands of different winning sequences were programmed to match the win factor (at least that's how I read it back then at cm or something 😄. I don't want to claim that this is 100 percent the case).
On the other hand, there may also be the possibility that the rng throws out a sequence of numbers that determines the images on the reel. This is often described in guides.
But even then, in free spins, this sequence of numbers would simply be determined in a fraction of a second for all spins and the win would be fixed.
So I think the function is probably a bit more complex than just the rng knocking out a factor and visualizing it in one way or another... (even if I've also assumed this before)
But I think it's irrefutable that you know what you win when you press it... 😄
Can't you get a statement on this from a Provider? Höllegames, for example, is in contact with them.
There may be different systems in the base game. Pat's main question, however, is whether the spins in the free games are also RNG-generated and the answer is quite clear: no, they are not. Free spins are basically to be regarded as a single spin. These free spins are just meant to build up a little excitement. It would be boring if there were no bonuses. We are in the 21st century and no longer in the 20th century, where there were only one-armed bandits and you had to get 3x 7s to hit the jackpot.
I don't think providers will explain to you exactly how the whole thing works and how they have programmed their games. You will probably be given a standard explanation that you can find by doing a Google search. The Technology Behind Online Slots and How They All Work (thecustomizewindows.com) Here at "How Online Slots Work" Pat can read through this. If you really want to know more about it, it's best to know someone who does this job and ask them. They'll be able to explain it to you because they know a lot about it.
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
15th Feb. 2024, at 04:01 pm CET#34
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Pat's main question, however, is whether the spins in the free games are also RNG-generated
(...)
If you really want to know more about this, it's best to know someone who does this job and ask them. They can explain it to you simply because they know a lot about it.
@Andre, how about a little interview request? Do you have any contacts? It would be really interesting to know.
Pat1991 wrote on 02/15/2024 at 4:01 pm:
@Andre, how about a little interview request? Do you have any contacts? Would be really interesting to know.
My name isn't Andre, but I hope you don't mind if I answer you anyway
We actually tried a few years ago to get an interview along these lines and then publish it here as an article with video material or something similar. Not just specifically on this topic, but in general, because there are a lot of open questions that ultimately only a Provider can answer, but which would certainly be interesting. - It would also be interesting to get an insight into a provider's control center to get a better idea of what it looks like in the background.
As far as I remember, there were actually 1-2 contacts from the providers we were in contact with at the time who were relatively open to us coming by. Unfortunately, this interview never took place. After all these years, I can no longer give the reasons.
Maybe something just came up, or we were focusing on other construction sites.
A good year ago, I was in contact with another provider, and I took the opportunity to ask for such an interview again. But unfortunately nothing "special" came out of it; as frapi07 mentioned above, it was just a standard statement without any interesting details.
But I totally agree with you that a real interview like this, with an interviewer who is really willing to get some interesting details out of it. Would be really interesting and cool.
We'll see what comes up, we'll definitely keep that in mind.
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
15th Feb. 2024, at 10:07 pm CET#37
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Pat1991 wrote on February 15, 2024 at 4:01 pm:
@Andre, how about a little interview request? Do you have any contacts? Would be really interesting to know.
You can forget about them telling you in an interview how slots from Provider X work, for example, or whether the spins in the bonus rounds are also random. Of course they want you to believe that. The player should be happy and preferably hysterical, dreaming of the maximum win until the last spin. What I meant was a conversation "between buddies".
The best I could find in a short time is the following section of an older report https://youtu.be/mFJGBL4uQiQ?si=C5jhe66Im3Ld3JCn
From the 9:00 minute mark, they briefly go into the inner workings of a slot. Until about 9:29 they talk about the frequency and from 9:30 they say the following: "Depending on how we now distribute the symbols on the bars, we get different results"
The mathematician has not mentioned anything about the distribution here. The way he says it, he doesn't want to go into this topic at all - possibly because he's not allowed to. At least that's my interpretation.
Julian wrote on February 15, 2024 at 4:15 pm:
I then had contact with another provider a good year ago, and there I took the opportunity to ask again for such a conversation. But unfortunately nothing "special" came out of it, it was, as frapi07 mentioned above, just a standard statement without interesting details.
I'm not surprised. It's very important information. You always have to bear in mind that these are also companies and that slot games are their products. You also have to remember the competitors. They could also look at the interviews and possibly copy something.
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
15th Feb. 2024, at 10:14 pm CET#38
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frapi07 wrote on February 15, 2024 at 10:07 pm:
I'm not surprised. It's very important information. You always have to bear in mind that these are also companies and that the slot games are their products. You also have to remember the competitors. They could also look at the interviews and possibly copy something.
Nothing is copied because they all work according to the same models. And it would be easy for a slot programmer to examine another slot.
So it's not such a big secret what's going on. You just don't want to shout it out in public, especially because most players still think that every round is completely random. For example, that you can get the third Scatter with a quick stop and so on. Or that the selection in pick and collect games is completely random, although this is already known in advance.
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
15th Feb. 2024, at 11:49 pm CET#39
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Or that the selection in pick and collect games would be completely random
According to the documentary I quoted, this is sometimes actually the case. "It depends on which state [in the USA] the machine is in", it said.
You just don't want to shout it out in public, especially because most players still think that every round is completely random. For example, that you can get the third Scatter with a quick stop and so on.
Basically, it is (in the base game). The only difference is that the result is already determined at the start of the round.
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
16th Feb. 2024, at 12:07 am CET#40
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Falke wrote on February 15, 2024 at 10:14 pm:
Nothing is copied because they all work according to the same models. And it would be easy for a slot programmer to screen another slot.
So it's not such a big secret what's going on. You just don't want to shout it out in public, especially because most players still think that every round is completely random. For example, that you can get the third Scatter with a quick stop and so on. Or that the selection in pick and collect games is completely random, although this is already known in advance.
Yes, presumably none of this is a secret, but they are still a company and any information is worth its weight in gold to their competitors. I mean, in the one documentary I linked to in the previous post, it even shows that at Merkur only a few people can program the game packages into the circuit boards. The software not only contains the games, but logically also the winning algorithms. The content even deletes itself automatically if you try to remove/destroy certain elements from the outside. Of course, they do this to protect themselves from Manipulation, but also from piracy. The whole thing is shown from 33:00.
@Pat
But the USA is not Germany or Europe. Of course it can be different there. I don't live in America and don't know anything about it, so I can't contribute anything.
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
16th Feb. 2024, at 12:30 am CET#42
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Falke wrote on February 15, 2024 at 10:14 pm:
Nothing is copied because they all work according to the same models. And it would be easy for a slot programmer to screen another slot.
So it's not such a big secret what's going on. You just don't want to shout it out in public, especially because most players still think that every round is completely random. For example, that you can get the third Scatter with a quick stop and so on. Or that the selection in pick and collect games is completely random, although that is already known in advance.
I would like to add something else. You can certainly recognize a difference between the providers. With Pragmatic, it is often the case that many only give Bonuses 10-30x. Pragmatic also often pays several spins.
But if you look at ELK - especially Cygnus, Pirots, Katmandu etc. (the list could go on, but I'm too lazy for that) you usually only have one spin that pays. The others are dead spins or give small wins. But ELK is clever and doesn't let you buy bonuses in the demo version. You would have to earn them. Spinning the super bonuses is of course time-consuming. In any case, it's difficult to test the bonuses there unless you invest money. But yes, there are differences and the slots are also programmed differently.
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
16th Feb. 2024, at 01:11 am CET#43
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frapi07 wrote on 02/16/2024 00:30:
I would like to add something. You can very well recognize a difference between the providers. With Pragmatic it is often the case that many only give Bonuses 10-30x. Pragmatic also often pays several spins.
But if you look at ELK - especially Cygnus, Pirots, Katmandu etc. (the list could go on, but I'm too lazy for that) you usually only have one spin that pays. The others are dead spins or give small wins. But ELK is clever and doesn't let you buy bonuses in the demo version. You would have to earn them. Spinning the super bonuses is of course time-consuming. In any case, it's difficult to test the bonuses there unless you invest money. But yes, there are differences and the slots are also programmed differently.
I can buy free spins as normal in the demo version at ELK. And yes, the individual manufacturers program the slots slightly differently, so that the images fall down differently and the free spins win is displayed in one spin instead of being split over several spins. But that doesn't change the basic principle that the win is already determined beforehand and how it is then displayed to you is only for entertainment purposes.
The second point, how much the slots pay out, has to do with volatility. However, this has nothing to do with the topic here. A lot of topics are being mixed up here.
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
16th Feb. 2024, at 01:55 am CET#44
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Falke wrote on 02/16/2024 01:11:
I can buy free spins in the demo version of ELK as normal. And yes, the individual manufacturers program the slots a little differently so that the images fall down differently and the free spins win is then displayed in one spin instead of being split over several spins. But that doesn't change the basic principle that the win is already determined beforehand and how it is then displayed to you is only for entertainment purposes.
The second point, how much the slots pay out, has something to do with volatility. However, this has nothing to do with the topic here. A lot of topics are being mixed up here.
Perhaps I expressed myself somewhat incorrectly on the second point. Volatility has nothing to do with my point. Volatility has to do with the amount of the total profit. But I'm not talking about the amount. I meant the way the Bonuses work.
If you buy a super bonus of €500 at Pirots, for example, you usually have 5 spins. As a rule, one of these spins pays out a large part of your total winnings. You can then throw the other spins in the garbage can. This would not change the volatility because the total winnings would remain the same.
With gates, you often have bonuses that play many dead spins. As a rule, 7 out of 15 free spins are for the cat. In return, the remaining spins pay medium to good.
There are of course also bonuses at Pragmatic where only one spin pays back 30% of the bet and the rest of the spins are for the ton, but the frequency of this script is much higher at ELK. If you have the opportunity to test the bonuses there, then do so and you will understand what I mean.
ELK could also program it like Pragmatic and spread it over 3-4 spins instead of just one, but you'll rarely get a bonus where that happens. Most of the time it works like I explained: 1 spin pays and the rest either pays nothing or only peanuts. Nothing would change in terms of volatility because the total winnings would remain the same. Only the way in which the win is achieved would change.
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
16th Feb. 2024, at 02:07 am CET#45
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frapi07 wrote on 02/16/2024 01:55:
Maybe I expressed myself a bit wrong on the 2nd point. Volatility has nothing to do with my point. Volatility has to do with the amount of total profit. But I'm not talking about the amount. I meant the way the Bonuses work.
If you buy a super bonus of €500 at Pirots, for example, you usually have 5 spins. As a rule, one of these spins pays out a large part of your total winnings. You can then throw the other spins in the garbage can. This would not change the volatility because the total win would remain the same.
With gates, you often have bonuses that play many dead spins. As a rule, 7 out of 15 free spins are for the cat. In return, the remaining spins pay medium to good.
There are of course also bonuses at Pragmatic where only one spin pays back 30% of the bet and the rest of the spins are for the ton, but the frequency of this script is much higher at ELK. If you have the opportunity to test the bonuses there, then do so and you will understand what I mean.
ELK could also program it like Pragmatic and spread it over 3-4 spins instead of just one, but you'll rarely get a bonus where that happens. Most of the time it works like I explained: 1 spin pays and the rest either pays nothing or only peanuts. Nothing would change in terms of volatility because the total winnings would remain the same. Only the way you make the win would change.
Sorry for double post:
If you buy a Super Bonus of €500 at Pirots, for example, you usually have 5 spins. As a rule, one of these spins pays out a large part of your total winnings. You can then throw the other spins in the garbage can +
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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I know....am a bit strange sometimes Very worth reading, by the way, how factually differentiated the topic is viewed and argued here. It's a pleasure to read along
This post has been translated automatically
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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It's just difficult as a layman. There will probably also be differences in the programming.
For example, I don't believe that All Slots work in the same way: a Win factor is randomly determined, the higher the less likely. At the same time, it is determined whether the win occurs in free games, in the base game or during a random feature. And then the whole thing is bluntly animated. That's how I imagine it with slots like jammin jars, for example. Two streamers once received exactly the same win factor with exactly the same free game sequence. It then became clear relatively quickly that the slot worked more like a scratch card and that thousands of different winning sequences were programmed to match the win factor (at least that's how I read it back then at cm or something 😄. I don't want to claim that this is 100 percent the case).
On the other hand, there may also be the possibility that the rng throws out a sequence of numbers that determines the images on the reel. This is often described in guides.
But even then, in free spins, this sequence of numbers would simply be determined in a fraction of a second for all spins and the win would be fixed.
So I think the function is probably a bit more complex than the rng just knocks out a factor and visualizes it in one way or another (even if I've assumed it that way before)
But I think it's irrefutable that you know what you win when you press it... 😄
Can't you get a statement on this from a Provider? Höllegames, for example, is in contact with them.
This post has been translated automatically
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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There may be different systems in the base game. Pat's main question, however, is whether the spins in the free games are also RNG-generated and the answer is quite clear: no, they are not. Free spins are basically to be regarded as a single spin. These free spins are just meant to build up a little excitement. It would be boring if there were no bonuses. We are in the 21st century and no longer in the 20th century, where there were only one-armed bandits and you had to get 3x 7s to hit the jackpot.
I don't think providers will explain to you exactly how the whole thing works and how they have programmed their games. You will probably be given a standard explanation that you can find by doing a Google search. The Technology Behind Online Slots and How They All Work (thecustomizewindows.com) Here at "How Online Slots Work" Pat can read through this. If you really want to know more about it, it's best to know someone who does this job and ask them. They'll be able to explain it to you because they know a lot about it.
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Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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@Andre, how about a little interview request? Do you have any contacts? It would be really interesting to know.
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Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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My name isn't Andre, but I hope you don't mind if I answer you anyway
We actually tried a few years ago to get an interview along these lines and then publish it here as an article with video material or something similar. Not just specifically on this topic, but in general, because there are a lot of open questions that ultimately only a Provider can answer, but which would certainly be interesting. - It would also be interesting to get an insight into a provider's control center to get a better idea of what it looks like in the background.
As far as I remember, there were actually 1-2 contacts from the providers we were in contact with at the time who were relatively open to us coming by. Unfortunately, this interview never took place. After all these years, I can no longer give the reasons.
Maybe something just came up, or we were focusing on other construction sites.
A good year ago, I was in contact with another provider, and I took the opportunity to ask for such an interview again. But unfortunately nothing "special" came out of it; as frapi07 mentioned above, it was just a standard statement without any interesting details.
But I totally agree with you that a real interview like this, with an interviewer who is really willing to get some interesting details out of it. Would be really interesting and cool.
We'll see what comes up, we'll definitely keep that in mind.
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Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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Of course no proof either, but this type of "slot" also points in the direction that basically only results are queried, even in the bonus rounds...
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Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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You can forget about them telling you in an interview how slots from Provider X work, for example, or whether the spins in the bonus rounds are also random. Of course they want you to believe that. The player should be happy and preferably hysterical, dreaming of the maximum win until the last spin. What I meant was a conversation "between buddies".
The best I could find in a short time is the following section of an older report https://youtu.be/mFJGBL4uQiQ?si=C5jhe66Im3Ld3JCn
From the 9:00 minute mark, they briefly go into the inner workings of a slot. Until about 9:29 they talk about the frequency and from 9:30 they say the following: "Depending on how we now distribute the symbols on the bars, we get different results"
The mathematician has not mentioned anything about the distribution here. The way he says it, he doesn't want to go into this topic at all - possibly because he's not allowed to. At least that's my interpretation.
I'm not surprised. It's very important information. You always have to bear in mind that these are also companies and that slot games are their products. You also have to remember the competitors. They could also look at the interviews and possibly copy something.
This post has been translated automatically
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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Nothing is copied because they all work according to the same models. And it would be easy for a slot programmer to examine another slot.
So it's not such a big secret what's going on. You just don't want to shout it out in public, especially because most players still think that every round is completely random. For example, that you can get the third Scatter with a quick stop and so on. Or that the selection in pick and collect games is completely random, although this is already known in advance.
This post has been translated automatically
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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According to the documentary I quoted, this is sometimes actually the case. "It depends on which state [in the USA] the machine is in", it said.
Basically, it is (in the base game). The only difference is that the result is already determined at the start of the round.
This post has been translated automatically
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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Yes, presumably none of this is a secret, but they are still a company and any information is worth its weight in gold to their competitors. I mean, in the one documentary I linked to in the previous post, it even shows that at Merkur only a few people can program the game packages into the circuit boards. The software not only contains the games, but logically also the winning algorithms. The content even deletes itself automatically if you try to remove/destroy certain elements from the outside. Of course, they do this to protect themselves from Manipulation, but also from piracy. The whole thing is shown from 33:00.
@Pat
But the USA is not Germany or Europe. Of course it can be different there. I don't live in America and don't know anything about it, so I can't contribute anything.
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I don't want to know the final result right at the start of the bonus round.
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Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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I would like to add something else. You can certainly recognize a difference between the providers. With Pragmatic, it is often the case that many only give Bonuses 10-30x. Pragmatic also often pays several spins.
But if you look at ELK - especially Cygnus, Pirots, Katmandu etc. (the list could go on, but I'm too lazy for that) you usually only have one spin that pays. The others are dead spins or give small wins. But ELK is clever and doesn't let you buy bonuses in the demo version. You would have to earn them. Spinning the super bonuses is of course time-consuming. In any case, it's difficult to test the bonuses there unless you invest money. But yes, there are differences and the slots are also programmed differently.
This post has been translated automatically
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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I can buy free spins as normal in the demo version at ELK. And yes, the individual manufacturers program the slots slightly differently, so that the images fall down differently and the free spins win is displayed in one spin instead of being split over several spins. But that doesn't change the basic principle that the win is already determined beforehand and how it is then displayed to you is only for entertainment purposes.
The second point, how much the slots pay out, has to do with volatility. However, this has nothing to do with the topic here. A lot of topics are being mixed up here.
This post has been translated automatically
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
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Perhaps I expressed myself somewhat incorrectly on the second point. Volatility has nothing to do with my point. Volatility has to do with the amount of the total profit. But I'm not talking about the amount. I meant the way the Bonuses work.
If you buy a super bonus of €500 at Pirots, for example, you usually have 5 spins. As a rule, one of these spins pays out a large part of your total winnings. You can then throw the other spins in the garbage can. This would not change the volatility because the total winnings would remain the same.
With gates, you often have bonuses that play many dead spins. As a rule, 7 out of 15 free spins are for the cat. In return, the remaining spins pay medium to good.
There are of course also bonuses at Pragmatic where only one spin pays back 30% of the bet and the rest of the spins are for the ton, but the frequency of this script is much higher at ELK. If you have the opportunity to test the bonuses there, then do so and you will understand what I mean.
ELK could also program it like Pragmatic and spread it over 3-4 spins instead of just one, but you'll rarely get a bonus where that happens. Most of the time it works like I explained: 1 spin pays and the rest either pays nothing or only peanuts. Nothing would change in terms of volatility because the total winnings would remain the same. Only the way in which the win is achieved would change.
This post has been translated automatically
Gates Of Olympus: Free spins not just a coincidence?
Nobody has liked this post so far
Sorry for double post:
If you buy a Super Bonus of €500 at Pirots, for example, you usually have 5 spins. As a rule, one of these spins pays out a large part of your total winnings. You can then throw the other spins in the garbage can +
This post has been translated automatically