Coffee Light wrote on 10/14/2018 at 9:35 pm
Where do I put it like that? Cite the relevant post.
And it would be really nice if you don't parrot something others say, but make your own arguments.
Again, so that you also understand: Whether a video is dubbed for the purpose of deceiving others, or whether one gets something cobbled together that has already been run, or whether it is manipulated in some other way, fraud is fraud.
Now understood?
Or did it grab you again today and you want to provoke a little?
By the way, it should be quite easy to prove that the technical possibility for Manipulation is not given, isn't it?
This is nothing metaphysical, even if it sounds so beautiful.
Ne, cheating is not cheating. Sorry you can't hold the firm opinion here in the forum in every thread that the slots are all manipulated in such a way that you only win a certain amount, casinos have influence on it etc. and then say "Yes but it's the same if a real game result is saved and re-dubbed for promo purposes". It isn't. Are two different types of fraud. One that is unlikely and for which there is no evidence and which is fraud directly on the slots and one that is likely and is fraud on players or people in the form of advertising
From that point of view, of course, all advertising is fraud. In the vanilla pudding cup is in the advertising always only mayonnaise and at cola bottles run also basically fresh tautrops down the glass
It is fraud, just as almost all advertising is fraud. The casino industry is certainly not the most morally clean there is, that much is clear to everyone. Of course, there are more black sheep than white ones who use every trick in the book to get players to deposit. From then on, the mathematics regulates the win, the more players the more money
You say there has been PROVEN MANIPULATION at Ovo because they pulled out an old winning video and I'm supposed to bring proof against that? So you want me to bring you, a grown man, proof that a casino would not lie and cheat in favor of advertising or how do I understand that please?
Daniel's statement is enough proof for me that OVO Casino is cheating players in the form of manipulated advertising. Now it's your turn and please find a proof that Online Casinos manipulate slots in such a way that you only ever win a certain amount and why netent hasn't given you any Aloha free spins for a year. Serious sources please. Otherwise, just acknowledge that you are in the position to provide proof with your opinion. You are the accuser, you don't even have any other evidence than your intuition - which is demonstrably subjective and possibly even influenced by an addiction
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14th Oct. 2018, at 11:55 pm CEST#252
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Bones wrote on 10/14/2018 at 9:51 pm
Nah, scam is not scam. Sorry you can't have a firm opinion here on the forum in every thread that the slots are all rigged so that you only win a certain amount, casinos have influence on it etc and then say "yeah but it's the same if a real game result is saved and re-dubbed for promo purposes". It isn't. Are two different types of fraud. One that is unlikely and for which there is no evidence and which is fraud directly on the slots and one that is likely and is fraud on players or people in the form of advertising
Well, of course I can hold this opinion. Especially since I am not even said that it was a winning video of another player.
Of course, cheating is cheating. Deception is deception. A lie is a lie. The purpose is to get people to Deposit money. The purpose is to make money.
If you cheat in one way, you will cheat in other ways, if the opportunity is there.
Well, of course it's likely. You just don't want to believe it, but it is probable.
Even Daniel considers it at certain casinos.
And if some do it probably or possibly, why shouldn't others?
Well, of course I'm allowed to hold this view, who wants to forbid or deny it?
Bone wrote on 10/14/2018 at 9:51 pm
From that point of view, of course, all advertising is bullshit. In the vanilla pudding cup is in the advertising always only mayonnaise and at Coke bottles run also basically fresh tautrops down the glass
Well, of course it is. One could also speak of fraudulent misrepresentation, but from a legal point of view it is unfortunately allowed.
The only thing is that you have the product in your hand, you can see what it is, how it tastes, how it feels, and then you can decide not to buy it or not to buy it anymore.
Gambling involves completely different conditions, from hope to addiction, you have nothing in your hand, you don't see what's coming.
Completely different case.
Only: who tells you that it was a winning video? Who tells you that it was "only" dubbed, which alone is cheating at its best?
Bone wrote on 10/14/2018 at 9:51 pm
The casino industry is certainly not the most morally clean there is, that much is clear to all. Of course there are more black sheep than white ones who use every trick in the book to get players to deposit. From then on the mathematics regulates the win, the more players the more money
I ask again: Where do you get your knowledge from? And I don't mean opinion, but knowledge.
Bone wrote on 10/14/2018 at 9:51 pm
You say there has been PROVEN Manipulation at Ovo because they pulled out an old winning video and you want me to bring evidence against that? So you want me to bring you, a grown man, evidence that a casino would not lie and cheat in favor of advertising or how do I understand that please?
Right. Because you always assert something and don't pass it off as your opinion.
Nah, you're not supposed to bring evidence against the video. Besides, that's what Daniel reported, not me.
I want everyone who presents as FACT that OCs do not cheat/manipulate to prove/prove exactly that. Gladly also with links to absolutely independent auditors/institutions that know exactly, but unfortunately do not exist to my knowledge.
Do you actually not get that the point is not to simply make claims as fact that cannot be proven at all and that those who constantly say everything is independent and that there is no fraud are merely parroting what the OCs themselves say?
Bone wrote on 10/14/2018 at 9:51 pm
Daniel's statement is enough proof for me in that OVO Casino is screwing players in the form of manipulated advertising. Now it's your turn to please find proof that Online Casinos manipulate slots so that you only ever win a certain amount and why netent hasn't given you any Aloha free spins in a year. Serious sources please. Otherwise, just acknowledge that you are in the position to provide proof with your opinion. You are the accuser, you don't even have any other evidence than your intuition - which is demonstrably subjective and possibly even influenced by an addiction.
So, Daniel's statement is enough for you. Is then also enough for you the fact that fraud nowmal takes place and one knows however so far only from such cases, thereby however the probability of other fraud becomes ever larger?
Is it also enough for you that Daniel takes into consideration that at OVO & Co also completely different fraud could take place? Or do you ignore that?
Apart from that: Daniel does not work in an OC. He also only knows what OCs tell.
Doesn't mean he can't be right.
Or that you couldn't be right.
However, there is not the very slightest, miniscule shred of evidence for it. So, for the fact that otherwise there is no cheating. Nothing there, nada.
Nope, I don't have to provide any evidence at all, and that's because I'm not simply stating that cheating is going on, but that I'm convinced of it. I'm not stating it as fact. I'm not saying, "OCs cheat. Fact."
You, on the other hand, go on and on claiming that they don't, you bring it up as an alleged fact.
I can't prove anything either, neither can you or Daniel or anyone here who doesn't own or manage an OC or have insight behind the scenes.
And I'm certainly not in a position to have to provide proof, for reasons stated above.
As soon as you and Daniel and others no longer claim that it is not possible to cheat, but instead clearly point out that you are of the opinion, based on your previous info from OCs, that they can't or don't do it, we can also discuss it normally again.
But as long as you keep putting that as fact, without any evidence, no matter how small, that will hardly be possible.
As I have said: What you demand is the same as what believers often demand: "Prove that there is no God".
Doesn't make sense to discuss with such stuck people. You will not change your mind. Hope for you NetEnt reads here and you get your free spins at Aloha soon
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15th Oct. 2018, at 11:57 am CEST#255
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Bones wrote on 10/15/2018 at 11:42 am: As I said: What you are asking for is the same thing believers often ask for, "Why don't you prove there is no God".
Makes no sense to discuss with such deadlocked people. You will not change your mind. Hope for you NetEnt reads here and you get your free spins at Aloha soon.
Yes, exactly, finding evidence of technical feasibility is the same as finding God
Guys... what's wrong with you?
Please explain why OCs are something metaphyical.
Is that how you see them?
Imagine the following situation: Someone is suspected of a crime. The justice asks for an alibi.
The suspect/accused says, "Nah, wait a minute. You are trying to get proof from me for something I didn't do and where I wasn't even. Sorry, that's like trying to prove that God exists."
Yo. Now that's some logic.
OCs are real. They exist. All the technical means to raise one and keep it running are real. They all exist. Many can even replicate them because they have the technical knowhow.
Please explain to all of us how this even begins to compare to a metaphysical entity like God.
For God, there is no evidence. For OCs there is evidence. Logically, we're gambling there. They are there.
Hard to believe, but true
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15th Oct. 2018, at 01:58 pm CEST#256
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Coffee light wrote on 10/15/2018 at 11:57 am
Yes, exactly, finding evidence of technical feasibility is the same as finding God
Guys... what is wrong with you?
Please explain why OCs are something metaphyical.
Is that how you see them?
Imagine the following situation: Someone is suspected of a crime. The justice asks for an alibi.
The suspect/accused says, "Nah, wait a minute. You are trying to get proof from me for something I didn't do and where I wasn't even. Sorry, that's like trying to prove that God exists."
Yo. Now that's some logic.
OCs are real. They exist. All the technical means to raise one and keep it running are real. They all exist. Many can even reproduce them because they have the technical knowhow.
Please explain to all of us how that can even begin to compare to a metaphysical entity like God.
For God, there is no evidence. For OCs there is evidence. Logically, we're gambling there. They are there.
Hard to believe, but true
The majority is of the opinion that no major fraud is going on, we give what we know and the same you do. What answer do you want to hear in god's name now, that fraud would be quite possible? Yes, it would be, of course, if the supervisory authority is in on it and turns a few blind eyes.
We tell you here only that there are mechanisms that make fraud more difficult and that in our opinion, probably in most casinos everything runs halfway fair at least in the slots. Many things speak for this, for example, that the slots are not hosted at the casino, there are casinos that have their RTP checked, the probability of alibi wins exists mostly only with streamers and even there it is, according to my assertion, only very rarely the case, ... also the personal experience and the statistics of My RTP at Videoslots shows that the RTP really starts to balance out after a few thousand spins at the latest and thus at least in the slots with high probability there is no fraud.
But all this is enough for you, you want a solid proof that fraud is not possible and it does not exist. There is always fraud possible, at the MGA/UK/... casinos this is limited and mostly concerns the terms and conditions which rely on players reading over them or on bad bonus conditions. At casinos without a license or an authority that does not really pay attention to it, Bonus money is more often foisted or withdrawals take weeks to animate to cancel. The only thing that you might consider slots in any direction as fraud is that individual slots at, for example, a MGA casino with extra license from time to time licensed in Curacao. Then you can usually not look up the RTP and this will sometimes use a lower RTP number.
In all honor, your efforts to question all this, don't forget that none of us is omniscient. Everyone here reports their opinion and almost everyone here, even though I made fun of you a bit, understands your opinion as well. That fraud can prevail that can be and therefore one must be vigilant, if signs for it are discovered one can say more about it. Also the example with the court lags behind, the court can look behind the scenes and look into private rooms. But we as Vebraucher can not make a large-scale audit like, for example, the MGA to check whether everything is legal. And lack the knowledge, the tools and also the authority to look into some areas. That the MGA is rather lazy and has become the AGB copy paster does not need to explain further.
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15th Oct. 2018, at 02:35 pm CEST#257
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Ankor wrote on 10/15/2018 at 1:58 pm
The majority is of the opinion that there is no major fraud going on, we are stating what we know and you are doing the same. What answer do you want to hear now in gods name that fraud would be quite possible? Yes, it would be, of course, if the supervisory authority is in on it and turns a few blind eyes.
We tell you here only that there are mechanisms that make fraud more difficult and that in our opinion, probably in most casinos everything runs halfway fair at least in the slots. Many things speak for this, for example, that the slots are not hosted at the casino, there are casinos that have their RTP checked, the probability of alibi wins exists mostly only with streamers and even there it is, according to my assertion, only very rarely the case, ... also the personal experience and the statistics of My RTP at Videoslots shows that the RTP really starts to balance out after a few thousand spins at the latest and thus at least in the slots with high probability there is no fraud.
But all this is enough for you, you want a solid proof that fraud is not possible and it does not exist. There is always fraud possible, at the MGA/UK/... casinos this is limited and mostly concerns the terms and conditions which rely on players reading over them or on bad bonus conditions. At casinos without a license or an authority that does not really pay attention to it, Bonus money is more often foisted or withdrawals take weeks to animate to cancel. The only thing that you might consider slots in any direction as fraud is that individual slots at, for example, a MGA casino with extra license from time to time licensed in Curacao. Then you can usually not look up the RTP and this will sometimes use a lower RTP number.
In all honor to your efforts to question all this, don't forget that none of us is omniscient. Everyone here reports their opinion and almost everyone here, even though I made fun of you a bit, understands your opinion as well. That fraud can prevail that can be and therefore one must be vigilant, if signs for it are discovered one can say more about it. Also the example with the court lags behind, the court can look behind the scenes and look into private rooms. But we as Vebraucher can not make a large-scale audit like, for example, the MGA to check whether everything is legal. And lack the knowledge, the tools and also the authority to look into some areas. That the MGA is rather lazy and has become the AGB copy paster does not need to explain further.
But you confirm exactly what I have written: It is our opinion.
Exactly it is nevertheless the point: Not alleged unproven facts set up, which do not exist, but clarify that it concerns opinions.
Gladly also around experiences, because these play also in the psychology a large role and are not rarely also permissible for research purposes.
There is no empirical evidence here so far pro or con in this forum, or at all from people who do not have insight into how OCs work.
I only ask for evidence when things are again put forth as fact that simply cannot be proven by you/us.
I have already explained this umpteen times.
To make it clear that it is inadmissible to declare unsubstantiated claims as truth and fact.
This is misleading for all those who want to inform themselves about OCs.
An opinion can be formed by anyone based on their experience and the statements and info of those who already have experience.
Such an opinion can easily be distorted when alleged facts are constantly thrown around here that don't exist.
And I very often have the impression that this is exactly what is intended: To lull others into security, without that also only one of you here anything exact knows.
And nevertheless the whole has nothing and again nothing to do with metaphysics.
I do not want to attack you @Kaffeelicht but I think "empirics" is the wrong word, with what you mean. We only establish empirical evidence and this is just different for everyone because it is based on observation/experience.
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15th Oct. 2018, at 05:02 pm CEST#259
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Tropper wrote on 10/15/2018 at 3:54 pm: I don't want to attack you @Kaffeelicht but I think "empirical" is the wrong word with what you mean. We are just stating empirical evidence and it is different for everyone because it is based on observation/experience.
I don't feel attacked, don't worry.
To provide empirical evidence requires a collection of data that proves something.
While we do share experiences, we do not methodically collect appropriate data and results of specific experiments to speak of empirical evidence.
Empirical evidence is, for example, that in normal cases one sometimes wins and sometimes loses (in gambling). Why one wins then and then or not and how it works (in this case coincidence or predetermined?), whether there is a pattern and if so, which one, is not sufficiently proven because we do not collect and methodically evaluate data on this here.
What we write here is unfortunately not enough for empirical evidence.
By the way, I would be happy if someone could prove irrefutably that there is no cheating in OCs, because then you could play as relaxed as before. Without having to be suspicious at every turn.
If we are talking about empirical evidence, then I would like to state that an RTP of approx. 95-97%, depending on the game, is considered empirically provable, since this can be verified after several thousand spins. In a sociological survey, 1000 answers are already enough for it to be considered empirical
Thus, we already have an irrefutable fact and that is the average RTP
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Ne, cheating is not cheating. Sorry you can't hold the firm opinion here in the forum in every thread that the slots are all manipulated in such a way that you only win a certain amount, casinos have influence on it etc. and then say "Yes but it's the same if a real game result is saved and re-dubbed for promo purposes". It isn't. Are two different types of fraud. One that is unlikely and for which there is no evidence and which is fraud directly on the slots and one that is likely and is fraud on players or people in the form of advertising
From that point of view, of course, all advertising is fraud. In the vanilla pudding cup is in the advertising always only mayonnaise and at cola bottles run also basically fresh tautrops down the glass
It is fraud, just as almost all advertising is fraud. The casino industry is certainly not the most morally clean there is, that much is clear to everyone. Of course, there are more black sheep than white ones who use every trick in the book to get players to deposit. From then on, the mathematics regulates the win, the more players the more money
You say there has been PROVEN MANIPULATION at Ovo because they pulled out an old winning video and I'm supposed to bring proof against that? So you want me to bring you, a grown man, proof that a casino would not lie and cheat in favor of advertising or how do I understand that please?
Daniel's statement is enough proof for me that OVO Casino is cheating players in the form of manipulated advertising. Now it's your turn and please find a proof that Online Casinos manipulate slots in such a way that you only ever win a certain amount and why netent hasn't given you any Aloha free spins for a year. Serious sources please. Otherwise, just acknowledge that you are in the position to provide proof with your opinion. You are the accuser, you don't even have any other evidence than your intuition - which is demonstrably subjective and possibly even influenced by an addiction
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Well, of course I can hold this opinion. Especially since I am not even said that it was a winning video of another player.
Of course, cheating is cheating. Deception is deception. A lie is a lie. The purpose is to get people to Deposit money. The purpose is to make money.
If you cheat in one way, you will cheat in other ways, if the opportunity is there.
Well, of course it's likely. You just don't want to believe it, but it is probable.
Even Daniel considers it at certain casinos.
And if some do it probably or possibly, why shouldn't others?
Well, of course I'm allowed to hold this view, who wants to forbid or deny it?
Well, of course it is. One could also speak of fraudulent misrepresentation, but from a legal point of view it is unfortunately allowed.
The only thing is that you have the product in your hand, you can see what it is, how it tastes, how it feels, and then you can decide not to buy it or not to buy it anymore.
Gambling involves completely different conditions, from hope to addiction, you have nothing in your hand, you don't see what's coming.
Completely different case.
Only: who tells you that it was a winning video? Who tells you that it was "only" dubbed, which alone is cheating at its best?
I ask again: Where do you get your knowledge from? And I don't mean opinion, but knowledge.
Right. Because you always assert something and don't pass it off as your opinion.
Nah, you're not supposed to bring evidence against the video. Besides, that's what Daniel reported, not me.
I want everyone who presents as FACT that OCs do not cheat/manipulate to prove/prove exactly that. Gladly also with links to absolutely independent auditors/institutions that know exactly, but unfortunately do not exist to my knowledge.
Do you actually not get that the point is not to simply make claims as fact that cannot be proven at all and that those who constantly say everything is independent and that there is no fraud are merely parroting what the OCs themselves say?
So, Daniel's statement is enough for you. Is then also enough for you the fact that fraud nowmal takes place and one knows however so far only from such cases, thereby however the probability of other fraud becomes ever larger?
Is it also enough for you that Daniel takes into consideration that at OVO & Co also completely different fraud could take place? Or do you ignore that?
Apart from that: Daniel does not work in an OC. He also only knows what OCs tell.
Doesn't mean he can't be right.
Or that you couldn't be right.
However, there is not the very slightest, miniscule shred of evidence for it. So, for the fact that otherwise there is no cheating. Nothing there, nada.
Nope, I don't have to provide any evidence at all, and that's because I'm not simply stating that cheating is going on, but that I'm convinced of it. I'm not stating it as fact. I'm not saying, "OCs cheat. Fact."
You, on the other hand, go on and on claiming that they don't, you bring it up as an alleged fact.
I can't prove anything either, neither can you or Daniel or anyone here who doesn't own or manage an OC or have insight behind the scenes.
And I'm certainly not in a position to have to provide proof, for reasons stated above.
As soon as you and Daniel and others no longer claim that it is not possible to cheat, but instead clearly point out that you are of the opinion, based on your previous info from OCs, that they can't or don't do it, we can also discuss it normally again.
But as long as you keep putting that as fact, without any evidence, no matter how small, that will hardly be possible.
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Doesn't make sense to discuss with such stuck people. You will not change your mind. Hope for you NetEnt reads here and you get your free spins at Aloha soon
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Yes, exactly, finding evidence of technical feasibility is the same as finding God
Guys... what's wrong with you?
Please explain why OCs are something metaphyical.
Is that how you see them?
Imagine the following situation: Someone is suspected of a crime. The justice asks for an alibi.
The suspect/accused says, "Nah, wait a minute. You are trying to get proof from me for something I didn't do and where I wasn't even. Sorry, that's like trying to prove that God exists."
Yo. Now that's some logic.
OCs are real. They exist. All the technical means to raise one and keep it running are real. They all exist. Many can even replicate them because they have the technical knowhow.
Please explain to all of us how this even begins to compare to a metaphysical entity like God.
For God, there is no evidence. For OCs there is evidence. Logically, we're gambling there. They are there.
Hard to believe, but true
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The majority is of the opinion that no major fraud is going on, we give what we know and the same you do. What answer do you want to hear in god's name now, that fraud would be quite possible? Yes, it would be, of course, if the supervisory authority is in on it and turns a few blind eyes.
We tell you here only that there are mechanisms that make fraud more difficult and that in our opinion, probably in most casinos everything runs halfway fair at least in the slots. Many things speak for this, for example, that the slots are not hosted at the casino, there are casinos that have their RTP checked, the probability of alibi wins exists mostly only with streamers and even there it is, according to my assertion, only very rarely the case, ... also the personal experience and the statistics of My RTP at Videoslots shows that the RTP really starts to balance out after a few thousand spins at the latest and thus at least in the slots with high probability there is no fraud.
But all this is enough for you, you want a solid proof that fraud is not possible and it does not exist. There is always fraud possible, at the MGA/UK/... casinos this is limited and mostly concerns the terms and conditions which rely on players reading over them or on bad bonus conditions. At casinos without a license or an authority that does not really pay attention to it, Bonus money is more often foisted or withdrawals take weeks to animate to cancel. The only thing that you might consider slots in any direction as fraud is that individual slots at, for example, a MGA casino with extra license from time to time licensed in Curacao. Then you can usually not look up the RTP and this will sometimes use a lower RTP number.
In all honor, your efforts to question all this, don't forget that none of us is omniscient. Everyone here reports their opinion and almost everyone here, even though I made fun of you a bit, understands your opinion as well. That fraud can prevail that can be and therefore one must be vigilant, if signs for it are discovered one can say more about it. Also the example with the court lags behind, the court can look behind the scenes and look into private rooms. But we as Vebraucher can not make a large-scale audit like, for example, the MGA to check whether everything is legal. And lack the knowledge, the tools and also the authority to look into some areas. That the MGA is rather lazy and has become the AGB copy paster does not need to explain further.
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But you confirm exactly what I have written: It is our opinion.
Exactly it is nevertheless the point: Not alleged unproven facts set up, which do not exist, but clarify that it concerns opinions.
Gladly also around experiences, because these play also in the psychology a large role and are not rarely also permissible for research purposes.
There is no empirical evidence here so far pro or con in this forum, or at all from people who do not have insight into how OCs work.
I only ask for evidence when things are again put forth as fact that simply cannot be proven by you/us.
I have already explained this umpteen times.
To make it clear that it is inadmissible to declare unsubstantiated claims as truth and fact.
This is misleading for all those who want to inform themselves about OCs.
An opinion can be formed by anyone based on their experience and the statements and info of those who already have experience.
Such an opinion can easily be distorted when alleged facts are constantly thrown around here that don't exist.
And I very often have the impression that this is exactly what is intended: To lull others into security, without that also only one of you here anything exact knows.
And nevertheless the whole has nothing and again nothing to do with metaphysics.
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I don't feel attacked, don't worry.
To provide empirical evidence requires a collection of data that proves something.
While we do share experiences, we do not methodically collect appropriate data and results of specific experiments to speak of empirical evidence.
Empirical evidence is, for example, that in normal cases one sometimes wins and sometimes loses (in gambling). Why one wins then and then or not and how it works (in this case coincidence or predetermined?), whether there is a pattern and if so, which one, is not sufficiently proven because we do not collect and methodically evaluate data on this here.
What we write here is unfortunately not enough for empirical evidence.
By the way, I would be happy if someone could prove irrefutably that there is no cheating in OCs, because then you could play as relaxed as before. Without having to be suspicious at every turn.
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Thus, we already have an irrefutable fact and that is the average RTP
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