Topic created on 11th Aug. 2019 | Page: 10 of 16 | Answers: 157 | Views: 41,333
j****1
Forum posts:13Member has been banned
Videoslots and the RTP value
18th Aug. 2019, at 12:46 pm CEST#91
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Yes, you really have to praise Kleinkariert. He's really trying to shed some light on it.
And no problem that you thought I was frustrated or had lost thousands.
I just want to shed some light on it, because in my opinion it's not a simple
it is not a simple coin toss. According to the calculation it is, but not with a
programmed machine.
Unfortunately, the most important questions are not answered. Can also not at all, because it is
is not known. At least to my knowledge.
There is always only the famous comparison with the coin toss. But this has only in a remote
Sense something to do with an RTP.
It doesn't help me if I know my RTP, because there are millions of other players at a certain slot who win or lose
Slot that win or lose
I would need, as described above, all deposits and withdrawals of the slot BOD. With all deposits
i mean all casinos that operate this slot and have a license e.g. with the MGA
Then I can calculate a reliable RTP after Deposit and payout, as well as the used spins
incl. the bet amount. Everything else is eyewash. Since we will probably never get these numbers
will, of course, leave plenty of interpretations for speculation in this area.
And since nothing is published in this area (in any case, I have seen nothing of the sort), this feeds the assumption that
the assumption that here is cheated. Even if my personal RTP is above 97%. Then I can
i can consider myself lucky, but it doesn't help me to play permanently. I know that by
permanent playing you lose anyway. But it is still a difference for me if I have 60% RTP or 97%
That's why I rather agree with Blubbo's opinion that the RTP is simply there to explain longer loss phases, although they may be intentional
although they may be deliberate and controllable. It is anyway a matter of luck, why do I need then a guaranteed
RTP of 97%, if I cannot understand it? Or only for me, which I actually always could do, if
i have written it down. But since the RTP is a mishmash of spins, number of players and spins, deposits and withdrawals,
Payout amount, I will never be able to understand this. That this is supposedly controlled, comforts, I yes also
not necessarily.
That's why I asked here if I see this wrong, and whether my way of thinking is correct.
That everything is basically a matter of luck, I am of course also clear.
But I would like to know similarly with the Lotto, how high the chance is to get the Jackpot.
I think that should be information that every player is entitled to.
To succinctly say either lucky or not would be a grade school explanation
Yes, it's a game of chance, all right. Nevertheless it belongs to the relevant information, how high is my
Probability of winning
Babooo76 wrote on 08/18/2019 01:09: I get that about coin tossing.
But now the real question:
Example I always flip with 1 cent!
My loss is say at 100 coins 50 coins converted 50 cents.
So Rtp 50 if I have understood correctly.
But now I throw only 2€
Does the Rtp have an influence on my bet?
With a throw of 2€ and immediately the first win.
Would my rtp increase to impact ?
@Kleinkariert good and realistic explanation. Thanks for it!
I think you have fundamentally the wrong thinking! You think that casino must make wins from the first spin or the machines are designed in such a way that there must be some patterns, that the RTP must be met, etc.
It's all much simpler than you think.
Take a look at roulette. Roulette has an RTP of 97.3%.
Every time you bet on a number or color, you have the same chance to win or lose. It doesn't matter if someone at that table has lost or won before. If someone bet 10,000€ on red before and won, then you personally can still win. No matter what bet you play and no matter what color you bet. It also doesn't matter how many times the color red has come before, that color can still come again because the kettle has no memory.
Do you think that the AQ in roulette is calculated by someone playing 1,000,000 times before? No, someone looks at the game, sees that there are 37 squares and sees what wins are possible and calculates the theoretical RTP based on that.
In roulette, the way it works is that there are 37 numbers. 18 numbers are red, 18 numbers are black, and then there's zero, which is green.
Each spin is random. Now if a player plays 1.000.000x with a bet of 1€ and always bets on the color red. Then at the end of the 1,000,000 coups he will get 486,500x black, 486,500x red and 27,000x the zero. He will have lost 27,000€ at the end. If there was no zero, he would have neither won nor lost at the end (RTP would not be 97.3% but 100%).
If a casino wants to increase its win and lower the RTP, it modifies Roulette and adds another zero (e.g. Double Zero as in American Roulette). By introducing the second zero, the RTP has dropped from 97.3% to 94.34%.
Slots work on the same principle, but slots are not as transparent to the player as roulette, since you never see the complete reels and thus cannot recalculate the RTP yourself.
There are, as described by Kleinkariert, reels with different winning symbols. The high win symbols are present on the reels less often than the small win symbols, accordingly it is less likely to get a win with high symbols. Now, if a slot manufacturer wants to reduce the RTP, he simply adds a few small winning symbols or removes a few big winning symbols
I think the law of large numbers has passed you by. Maybe this will help you to fully understand these principles:
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j****1
Forum posts:13Member has been banned
Videoslots and the RTP value
18th Aug. 2019, at 01:59 pm CEST#93
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Liked this post: Anonym, Anonym
Thank you, Daniel!
With Roulette, that makes sense to me, too.
It is completely mechanical. (hopefully)
But with a programmed machine, which is not supposed to spit out more than
than an average of 97%, no. If it were completely random,
the slot would theoretically also have to spit out a Big Win
for x 2000 twice in a row. But this never happens, or is not known to me.
And the Provider will make sure that he does not get over 97%.
The reduction at VS proves that it is possible to reduce the
To lower the RTP. So in principle to reprogram.
jokers11 wrote on 08/18/2019 1:59 pm: With Roulette, yes, it makes sense to me.
It's completely mechanical. (hopefully)
But with a programmed machine that doesn't spit out more than an a-
average 97% spit out, no. If it were completely random,
the slot would theoretically also have to spit out a Big Win
for x 2000 twice in a row. But this never happens, or is not known to me.
And the Provider will make sure that he does not get over 97%.
The reduction at VS proves that it is possible to reduce the
To lower the RTP. So in principle to reprogram.
Is this way of thinking wrong?
Yes, such a Big Win can occur. It can also happen 10x Big Wins. Have you never heard of players who deposited a small amount and ended up winning 10,000€, 50,000€ and more? Of course, such a thing is very, very rare or very unlikely .
And of course such wins are also a shock for a relatively small online casino. They can't control and manipulate anything there. Read the story. The Platincasino blocked the user and had to unlock him again a month later. The player did not lose his money, but won again. In that time, PlatinCasino (could have manipulated it), could have "turned off" the slot for the player. There was enough time and with the old management also enough "criminal" energy.
Note: The management has changed at PlatinCasino. The casino has now become a very trustworthy casino, to which there have been no complaints for a long time.
So how likely is it that the same number will come up 10 times in a row in roulette? I have never seen this happen, but I can't rule out that it hasn't happened at some point somewhere in the world.
Roulette also has a much lower Variance than slot games, even if you only bet on numbers. Of course, wins occur more often than at slot machines. In roulette you can win 36 times your bet, in Slot machines you can win between 200 times and 100,000 times (depending on the game). Think about how hard it is to hit the right number in roulette and now imagine that roulette has not only 36 numbers, but 10,000 numbers and you have to hit the right one (of course you win much more if you hit the right number). In an infinite number of games it happens that someone hits the right number, but it is much harder. And now think about how likely it is that you hit the right number 2x in a row or shortly after each other in 10,000 fields ...
And not Videoslots has lowered the RTP, but the game provider has provided Videoslots with a version with lower RTP!!! Videoslots said to the game provider that they would like to use this version. This is not something that happened overnight, but was prepared. The game has been taken down again and casinos can decide which version to offer to their players. Not only Videoslots uses this version, but also other Online Casinos!
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j****1
Forum posts:13Member has been banned
Videoslots and the RTP value
18th Aug. 2019, at 02:54 pm CEST#95
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Ok, I had only used Videoslots as an example and expressed myself incorrectly.
What you wrote makes sense to me.
My question was whether the providers are able to change the RTP and thus the programming?
Programming? Apparently they can, otherwise there would be no different versions with different
Versions with different RTP for the slots.
So it is purely theoretically possible to program an RTP of 70%, right?
So how do I know if the RTP is correct?
With Roulette I see the last 20 fallen numbers, and can pay myself to write down and
calculate
If a slot counts all players who have ever deposited in a certain slot, how can I know if the
how can I calculate that? Aren't they obliged to publish something like that?
As I wrote: Slot A: deposit/withdrawal, number of players, differentiated in all Deposit levels
in a period of one year? And only then I have the correct RTP?
Blubbo33 wrote on 08/18/2019 at 10:25 am
I think it's good that you deal with it and and try to explain it, but is it by the fact that it is not comprehensible unfortunately only a tactical value?
And that refers to the slot, not to my personal spins, what good is a good rtp if others win before me ?
Exactly the RTP value that is in the slot is not the personal value. But in general the personal RTP should come at least close to the theoretical RTP at some point. The more spins, the less weight a single spin has. At any moment, several thousand or more are playing the same slot and there are different game outcomes.
A slot can even have a positive RTP (over 100%) for a certain period of time and an RTP that is below the theoretical one. With Videoslots this can be observed well, but also with the slot tracker you can observe the change of the RTP. An official source like the MGA that collects and displays such data would be iDEAL and would provide more transparency. After my first research attempts, there is no source that currently does this, possibly the providers could publish such data themselves if everything goes through their server should be possible.
Addendum: If you want you can still look at Slottracker (without an account), you can filter by casino and game, for example: https://slottracker.com/slots/bookofdead
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j****1
Forum posts:13Member has been banned
Videoslots and the RTP value
18th Aug. 2019, at 03:27 pm CEST#97
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Kleinkariert wrote on 08/18/2019 at 15:22
Exactly the RTP value that is in the slot is not the personal value. In general, though, the personal RTP should at least get close to the theoretical RTP at some point. The more spins, the less weight a single spin has. At any moment, several thousand or more are playing the same slot and there are different game outcomes.
A slot can even have a positive RTP (over 100%) for a certain period of time and an RTP that is below the theoretical one. With Videoslots this can be observed well, but also with the slot tracker you can observe the change of the RTP. An official source like the MGA that collects and displays such data would be iDEAL and would provide more transparency. After my first research attempts, there is no source that currently does this, possibly the providers could publish such data themselves if everything goes through their server should be possible.
Too bad, such a statistic would have been really worth seeing. The question is, why don't they make it public?
Whenever something happens or is kept hidden, it is usually not so good.
And Daniel:
Yes, I have already noticed with the big wins. But these usually result from an initial higher win (not necessarily a big win)
necessarily a Big Win), and the increase of the stake, with again a win. Then again increase the stake and so on.
2xFullscreen Richie Rich in a row would be times what, I've never seen.
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Anonym
Former Member
Videoslots and the RTP value
18th Aug. 2019, at 03:44 pm CEST#98
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Paper is patient, even if there would then be published any numbers,
this would not be a proof that the RTP is now e.g. at the stated 95.6%
since you can write down everything so that it fits
as proof one would have to take ALL deposits and withdrawals as well as the generated from it
Turnover (the casino also gets sum x) and to check that
i imagine funny. With thousands of casinos...the whole thing would have to look at appropriate
Experts look at and check...think that is impossible
or how else should such a PROOF can be led? I am not an accountant
or business economist
In the listed companies in this industry, at least the sales and profit figures are published
and we all can buy shares and profit from the win of the companies
But I also think that many players would not be interested in all these figures
Figures
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Anonym
Former Member
Videoslots and the RTP value
18th Aug. 2019, at 03:50 pm CEST#99
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Liked this post: Anonym
bet-at-home gives there for example for 2018
Gross profit of € 143.4 million
Betting & gaming stakes € 3.188 billion
5 million customers worldwide (own data...)
not bad, or ?
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Anonym
Former Member
Videoslots and the RTP value
18th Aug. 2019, at 05:22 pm CEST#100
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Kleinkariert wrote on 08/18/2019 at 15:22
Exactly the RTP value that is in the slot is not the personal value. In general, though, the personal RTP should at least get close to the theoretical RTP at some point. The more spins, the less weight a single spin has. At any moment, several thousand or more are playing the same slot and there are different game outcomes.
A slot can even have a positive RTP (over 100%) for a certain period of time and an RTP that is below the theoretical one. With Videoslots this can be observed well, but also with the slot tracker you can observe the change of the RTP. An official source like the MGA that collects and displays such data would be iDEAL and would provide more transparency. After my first research attempts, there is no source that currently does this, possibly the providers could publish such data themselves if everything goes through their server should be possible.
Addendum: If you want you can still have a look at Slottracker (without an account), you can filter by casino and game, e.g.: https://slottracker.com/slots/bookofdead
Videoslots and the RTP value
Liked this post: Anonym
And no problem that you thought I was frustrated or had lost thousands.
I just want to shed some light on it, because in my opinion it's not a simple
it is not a simple coin toss. According to the calculation it is, but not with a
programmed machine.
Unfortunately, the most important questions are not answered. Can also not at all, because it is
is not known. At least to my knowledge.
There is always only the famous comparison with the coin toss. But this has only in a remote
Sense something to do with an RTP.
It doesn't help me if I know my RTP, because there are millions of other players at a certain slot who win or lose
Slot that win or lose
I would need, as described above, all deposits and withdrawals of the slot BOD. With all deposits
i mean all casinos that operate this slot and have a license e.g. with the MGA
Then I can calculate a reliable RTP after Deposit and payout, as well as the used spins
incl. the bet amount. Everything else is eyewash. Since we will probably never get these numbers
will, of course, leave plenty of interpretations for speculation in this area.
And since nothing is published in this area (in any case, I have seen nothing of the sort), this feeds the assumption that
the assumption that here is cheated. Even if my personal RTP is above 97%. Then I can
i can consider myself lucky, but it doesn't help me to play permanently. I know that by
permanent playing you lose anyway. But it is still a difference for me if I have 60% RTP or 97%
That's why I rather agree with Blubbo's opinion that the RTP is simply there to explain longer loss phases, although they may be intentional
although they may be deliberate and controllable. It is anyway a matter of luck, why do I need then a guaranteed
RTP of 97%, if I cannot understand it? Or only for me, which I actually always could do, if
i have written it down. But since the RTP is a mishmash of spins, number of players and spins, deposits and withdrawals,
Payout amount, I will never be able to understand this. That this is supposedly controlled, comforts, I yes also
not necessarily.
That's why I asked here if I see this wrong, and whether my way of thinking is correct.
That everything is basically a matter of luck, I am of course also clear.
But I would like to know similarly with the Lotto, how high the chance is to get the Jackpot.
I think that should be information that every player is entitled to.
To succinctly say either lucky or not would be a grade school explanation
Yes, it's a game of chance, all right. Nevertheless it belongs to the relevant information, how high is my
Probability of winning
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Videoslots and the RTP value
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@Kleinkariert good and realistic explanation. Thanks for it!
I think you have fundamentally the wrong thinking! You think that casino must make wins from the first spin or the machines are designed in such a way that there must be some patterns, that the RTP must be met, etc.
It's all much simpler than you think.
Take a look at roulette. Roulette has an RTP of 97.3%.
Every time you bet on a number or color, you have the same chance to win or lose. It doesn't matter if someone at that table has lost or won before. If someone bet 10,000€ on red before and won, then you personally can still win. No matter what bet you play and no matter what color you bet. It also doesn't matter how many times the color red has come before, that color can still come again because the kettle has no memory.
Do you think that the AQ in roulette is calculated by someone playing 1,000,000 times before? No, someone looks at the game, sees that there are 37 squares and sees what wins are possible and calculates the theoretical RTP based on that.
In roulette, the way it works is that there are 37 numbers. 18 numbers are red, 18 numbers are black, and then there's zero, which is green.
Each spin is random. Now if a player plays 1.000.000x with a bet of 1€ and always bets on the color red. Then at the end of the 1,000,000 coups he will get 486,500x black, 486,500x red and 27,000x the zero. He will have lost 27,000€ at the end. If there was no zero, he would have neither won nor lost at the end (RTP would not be 97.3% but 100%).
If a casino wants to increase its win and lower the RTP, it modifies Roulette and adds another zero (e.g. Double Zero as in American Roulette). By introducing the second zero, the RTP has dropped from 97.3% to 94.34%.
Slots work on the same principle, but slots are not as transparent to the player as roulette, since you never see the complete reels and thus cannot recalculate the RTP yourself.
There are, as described by Kleinkariert, reels with different winning symbols. The high win symbols are present on the reels less often than the small win symbols, accordingly it is less likely to get a win with high symbols. Now, if a slot manufacturer wants to reduce the RTP, he simply adds a few small winning symbols or removes a few big winning symbols
That's all, see: https://www.gamblejoe.com/ratgeber/spielautomaten-funktionsweise/
I think the law of large numbers has passed you by. Maybe this will help you to fully understand these principles:
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Videoslots and the RTP value
Liked this post: Anonym, Anonym
Thank you, Daniel!
With Roulette, that makes sense to me, too.
It is completely mechanical. (hopefully)
But with a programmed machine, which is not supposed to spit out more than
than an average of 97%, no. If it were completely random,
the slot would theoretically also have to spit out a Big Win
for x 2000 twice in a row. But this never happens, or is not known to me.
And the Provider will make sure that he does not get over 97%.
The reduction at VS proves that it is possible to reduce the
To lower the RTP. So in principle to reprogram.
Is this way of thinking wrong?
This post has been translated automatically
Videoslots and the RTP value
Liked this post: Anonym, Anonym, j****1
Yes, such a Big Win can occur. It can also happen 10x Big Wins. Have you never heard of players who deposited a small amount and ended up winning 10,000€, 50,000€ and more? Of course, such a thing is very, very rare or very unlikely .
Here someone has won over 160.000€ with a Deposit of less than 100€ (no progressive jackpot): https://www.gamblejoe.com/news/merkur-casino-verweigert-auszahlung/
And of course such wins are also a shock for a relatively small online casino. They can't control and manipulate anything there. Read the story. The Platincasino blocked the user and had to unlock him again a month later. The player did not lose his money, but won again. In that time, PlatinCasino (could have manipulated it), could have "turned off" the slot for the player. There was enough time and with the old management also enough "criminal" energy.
Note: The management has changed at PlatinCasino. The casino has now become a very trustworthy casino, to which there have been no complaints for a long time.
So how likely is it that the same number will come up 10 times in a row in roulette? I have never seen this happen, but I can't rule out that it hasn't happened at some point somewhere in the world.
Roulette also has a much lower Variance than slot games, even if you only bet on numbers. Of course, wins occur more often than at slot machines. In roulette you can win 36 times your bet, in Slot machines you can win between 200 times and 100,000 times (depending on the game). Think about how hard it is to hit the right number in roulette and now imagine that roulette has not only 36 numbers, but 10,000 numbers and you have to hit the right one (of course you win much more if you hit the right number). In an infinite number of games it happens that someone hits the right number, but it is much harder. And now think about how likely it is that you hit the right number 2x in a row or shortly after each other in 10,000 fields ...
And not Videoslots has lowered the RTP, but the game provider has provided Videoslots with a version with lower RTP!!! Videoslots said to the game provider that they would like to use this version. This is not something that happened overnight, but was prepared. The game has been taken down again and casinos can decide which version to offer to their players. Not only Videoslots uses this version, but also other Online Casinos!
This post has been translated automatically
Videoslots and the RTP value
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What you wrote makes sense to me.
My question was whether the providers are able to change the RTP and thus the programming?
Programming? Apparently they can, otherwise there would be no different versions with different
Versions with different RTP for the slots.
So it is purely theoretically possible to program an RTP of 70%, right?
So how do I know if the RTP is correct?
With Roulette I see the last 20 fallen numbers, and can pay myself to write down and
calculate
If a slot counts all players who have ever deposited in a certain slot, how can I know if the
how can I calculate that? Aren't they obliged to publish something like that?
As I wrote: Slot A: deposit/withdrawal, number of players, differentiated in all Deposit levels
in a period of one year? And only then I have the correct RTP?
Do I see it correctly like this?
This post has been translated automatically
Videoslots and the RTP value
Liked this post: Anonym, Anonym, j****1
Exactly the RTP value that is in the slot is not the personal value. But in general the personal RTP should come at least close to the theoretical RTP at some point. The more spins, the less weight a single spin has. At any moment, several thousand or more are playing the same slot and there are different game outcomes.
A slot can even have a positive RTP (over 100%) for a certain period of time and an RTP that is below the theoretical one. With Videoslots this can be observed well, but also with the slot tracker you can observe the change of the RTP. An official source like the MGA that collects and displays such data would be iDEAL and would provide more transparency. After my first research attempts, there is no source that currently does this, possibly the providers could publish such data themselves if everything goes through their server should be possible.
Addendum: If you want you can still look at Slottracker (without an account), you can filter by casino and game, for example: https://slottracker.com/slots/bookofdead
This post has been translated automatically
Videoslots and the RTP value
Nobody has liked this post so far
Too bad, such a statistic would have been really worth seeing. The question is, why don't they make it public?
Whenever something happens or is kept hidden, it is usually not so good.
And Daniel:
Yes, I have already noticed with the big wins. But these usually result from an initial higher win (not necessarily a big win)
necessarily a Big Win), and the increase of the stake, with again a win. Then again increase the stake and so on.
2xFullscreen Richie Rich in a row would be times what, I've never seen.
This post has been translated automatically
Videoslots and the RTP value
Nobody has liked this post so far
Paper is patient, even if there would then be published any numbers,
this would not be a proof that the RTP is now e.g. at the stated 95.6%
since you can write down everything so that it fits
as proof one would have to take ALL deposits and withdrawals as well as the generated from it
Turnover (the casino also gets sum x) and to check that
i imagine funny. With thousands of casinos...the whole thing would have to look at appropriate
Experts look at and check...think that is impossible
or how else should such a PROOF can be led? I am not an accountant
or business economist
In the listed companies in this industry, at least the sales and profit figures are published
and we all can buy shares and profit from the win of the companies
But I also think that many players would not be interested in all these figures
Figures
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Videoslots and the RTP value
Liked this post: Anonym
bet-at-home gives there for example for 2018
Gross profit of € 143.4 million
Betting & gaming stakes € 3.188 billion
5 million customers worldwide (own data...)
not bad, or ?
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Videoslots and the RTP value
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What is the srp at slottracker.com?
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