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Online Casinos in general: Still illegal play discussion thread (Page 4)

Topic created on 26th Apr. 2024 | Page: 4 of 5 | Answers: 62 | Views: 3,570
gamble1
Legend

Hanshanshans wrote on 27.04.2024 at 20:07: I had a "chat" with the chatgpt about Gamble1's original question. The term "transnational gambling" came up pretty quickly. Could be right...

Hansi:
To sum it up, if I remotely control my computer in Germany from the US and gamble at a casino not licensed in Germany, would that be transnational gambling?

Chatgpt:
Yes, that would be an example of transnational gambling. By remotely controlling a computer in Germany from the USA and then playing in an online casino that is not licensed in Germany, you are crossing geographical and legal borders. This gives rise to various legal risks:

1. **Regulations in Germany**: Although you are physically in the US, the action takes place on a German computer. This means that German laws and regulations may apply. If the online casino is not licensed in Germany, you may be in violation of German gambling laws.

2. **Regulations in the USA**: As you are in the USA, US laws may also be relevant, especially if gambling is heavily regulated or prohibited in your state.



It's not at all about a 100% legal assessment - it just has to be absurd enough that no one from the authorities will voluntarily get involved


To answer frapi again

But if I use e.g. let's say Coinbase, this is not a DE company if I am abroad e.g. let's say in Switzerland and Deposit from there into a curacao casino with my Coinbase account, I would not use a device in DE and would not be on German soil at the time of the matter, which means as long as I do this thing in Switzerland, the Swiss authorities can at most do something to me if they don't like it or am I missing something here again?

Business idea: let's place a kind of oil rig in international waters and rent out living space for a weekend of gambling in internet cafe style

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R3hab
Expert

gamble1 wrote on 27.04.2024 at 21:32

It's not about a 100% legal assessment at all, it just has to be absurd enough so that none of the authorities will voluntarily sit down


To answer frapi again

But if I use e.g. let's say Coinbase, this is not a DE company if I am abroad e.g. let's say in Switzerland and Deposit from there into a curacao casino with my Coinbase account, I would not use a device in DE and would not be on German soil at the time of the matter, which means as long as I do this thing in Switzerland, the Swiss authorities can at most do something to me if they don't like it or am I missing something here again?

Business idea: let's place a kind of oil rig in international waters and rent out living space for a weekend of gambling in internet cafe style

But your coinbase account is still registered with a DE address, it must have everything without a connection to something official, coinsbase certainly has a license and a company headquarters here or eu and are also bound to the government and have to give in if the authorities want information or something like that


This gray area that you are looking for is simply only possible with a lot of money, real estate in the respective locations, otherwise it is never possible

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gamble1
Legend

R3hab wrote on 28.04.2024 at 01:18:

But your coinbase account is still registered with a DE address, it must have everything without a connection to something official, coinsbase certainly also has a license and a company headquarters here or eu and are also bound to the government and have to give in if the authorities want information or something like that


This gray area that you are looking for is simply only possible with a lot of money, real estate in respective locations otherwise it is never possible

Yes, of course the DE address is there, but that's exactly what I mean, the whole law stands and falls with the ban on unlicensed providers in Germany and the ban on participating in unlicensed gambling in Germany


That's why I think it could be a matter of interpretation or at least it is so complicated and a procedure is uncertain because nobody can say whether it will ever be successful because you have not participated in this prohibited game in Germany

Same example Social Tournament if you do not Deposit any money it is not gambling if you use nodep offers from illegal casinos it is also not gambling but if you pay them out to your account you still have a problem again

With this I just want to say there are so many ifs and buts and nobody can say here yes that goes well or that does not go well because there are no comparable judgments that look at such an awesome scenario exactly

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frapi07
Elite

gamble1 wrote on 27.04.2024 at 21:32

It's not about a 100% legal assessment at all, it just has to be absurd enough so that none of the authorities will voluntarily sit down


To answer frapi again

But if I use e.g. let's say Coinbase, this is not a DE company if I am abroad e.g. let's say in Switzerland and Deposit from there into a curacao casino with my Coinbase account, I would not use a device in DE and would not be on German soil at the time of the matter, which means as long as I do this thing in Switzerland, the Swiss authorities can at most do something to me if they don't like it or am I missing something here again?

Business idea: let's place a kind of oil rig in international waters and rent out living space for a weekend of gambling in internet cafe style

Coinbase is also different. It would work there because no bank is involved.

If you do this with a German bank account (i.e. you are in a country where playing casino X is legal, but illegal in Germany), then you are still liable to prosecution, regardless of whether you are in that country at the time.

On the one hand. You yourself are not liable to prosecution if you gamble anywhere in the country. If you fly to Malta, you are not committing a crime if you go to the casino there. I would see it similarly with OCs. If it is legal there and you use a domestic account (i.e. not a DE bank account), then you are not committing a criminal offense. As I've already written, you don't even need to have a place of residence for a bank account. I can't answer whether this is enough for the legal OCs there, as it always varies.

Take a look at the two examples:

Example 1:
A Dutchman is visiting here (as a vacationer), opens a bank account and wants to play with a Provider that is legal for us in Germany. I'll take sunmaker as an example here. Sunmaker requires an address when you register. You could enter anything - but you would run into enormous problems at the latest when it comes to paying out. So you could play, but certainly not pay out.

Example 2:
In Canada there are OCs that are illegal here. No 1€ max bet etc. A German goes on vacation in Canada and successfully registers there (let's assume they don't require an address). The German vacationer is naive and uses his German bank details for deposits and withdrawals. I think that the German vacationer makes himself liable to prosecution here.

Only a lawyer can tell you whether this is really the case, and that 100% after there have been judgments on similar cases. Everything else is pure speculation.

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R3hab
Expert
gamble1 wrote on 28.04.2024 at 01:53:

Yes of course there is the DE address but that's exactly what I mean the whole law stands and falls with the ban on unlicensed providers in Germany and the ban on participating in unlicensed gambling in Germany


That's why I think it could be a matter of interpretation or at least it is so complicated and a procedure is uncertain because nobody can say whether it will ever be successful because you have not participated in this prohibited game in Germany

Same example Social Tournament if you do not Deposit any money it is not gambling if you use nodep offers from illegal casinos it is also not gambling but if you pay them out to your account you still have a problem again

With this I just want to say that there are so many ifs and buts and nobody can say here yes that goes well or that does not go well because there are no comparable judgments that look at such an awesome scenario exactly

I just remembered a report about a stateless businessman from DE

Google that, that's how he got around some things
I think I saw it on Galileo

I don't think it's complicated, the regulations still need optimization but StarGames is working hard to change it^^

At that time it was complicated and you didn't know anything, malta license was and is pure junk just like Curacao, there are only a few casinos that are simply reputable, and finding them back then was a pain! So basically the license doesn't matter if more junk than decent casinos have such licenses, more marketing than protection for the consumers

The German license means protection, look you are it professional, know about e-wallets and everything but the standard gambler rather less

England has shown Germany the way
There it is regulated a bit differently with bets and co believe it is a 5 and there are no limits for depositors but don't know exactly

There is no way out😂😂

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gamble1
Legend

R3hab wrote on 28.04.2024 at 09:24:
I just remembered a report about a stateless businessman from DE

Google that, that's how he got around some things
I think I saw that on Galileo

I don't think it's complicated, the regulations still need optimization but StarGames is working hard to change it^^

At that time it was complicated and you didn't know anything, malta license was and is pure junk just like Curacao, there are only a few casinos that are simply reputable, and finding them back then was a pain! So basically the license doesn't matter if more junk than decent casinos have such licenses, more marketing than protection for the consumers

The German license means protection, look you are it professional, know about e-wallets and everything but the standard gambler rather less

England has shown Germany the way
There it is regulated a bit differently with bets and co believe it is a 5 and there are no limits for depositors but don't know exactly

There is no way out😂😂

Yes, but especially in times of Coinbase, anyone can operate a wallet and even the conversion is taken from you

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R3hab
Expert

gamble1 wrote on 28.04.2024 at 20:50:

Yes, but especially in times of Coinbase everyone can operate a wallet, even the conversion is taken from you

Go into a spielo and ask if anyone knows coinbase or has a wallet, the majority won't know it and won't have a wallet let alone want to deal with it because as I said it's not that easy and most people don't want that.


The younger generation certainly has no problems with it, but all offline players 40+ who have no connection to something like this don't care and are completely out of it

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MisterL
Expert
i dealt with it when the exchange rate was still at 200 and needed it back then when you could still Deposit crypto with neteller.

at the beginning, if you have no idea, it's more difficult than you think.

if i had known what was coming i was so close to happiness and pushed it away

that's life evolution was the day before yesterday

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Hidaruma
Top Member

R3hab wrote on 28.04.2024 at 21:29:

Go to a spielo and ask if anyone knows coinbase or has a wallet, the majority won't know it and won't have a wallet let alone want to deal with it because as I said it's not that easy and most people don't want that.


The younger generation certainly has no problems with it, but all offline players 40+ who have no connection to something like this don't care and are completely out of it

Yes, and Gamble 1's statement wasn't aimed at offline players either, I would assume. Trust Wallet is easier to use than some e-mail inboxes.

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R3hab
Expert


MisterL wrote on 29.04.2024 at 00:42: I dealt with it when the course was still at 200 needed it back then when you could still Deposit crypto with neteller.

at the beginning if you have no idea it is more difficult than you think.

if i had known what was coming i was so close to happiness and pushed it away

that's life evolution was the day before yesterday

Yes, the price was even lower for me, but this darknet and bitcoins was too much for me, so I let it go 🙄

But how could you have guessed that

It was only meant for this black market in the Tor browser at the time

Shaaaaad😒

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dazzle_tea
Amateur
at least the question about playing offline can be answered clearly:

"Anyone who visits a casino abroad that is legal there may also legally place bets and play there as a German citizen. While in Germany the state or the federal states operate the "casinos" and there are otherwise only arcades with highly regulated Slot machines, abroad it is mostly private companies that operate casinos there. As they are not located on German territory, German law does not apply. This means that there is no legal framework for gambling there within the meaning of the German gambling monopoly."



Source: Unlawful gambling: participation and organization punishable (die-anwalts-kanzlei.de)

there are also other interesting questions and answers. for example this one:

"The private Poker round: permitted or prohibited?

If a private round meets occasionally and the bets remain within reasonable limits, this is legal. However, if the game is played for a considerable amount of money or on a regular basis, this card game round also falls under the gambling ban."






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dazzle_tea
Amateur
online, when illegal?

"There is still no uniform legal situation here and lawyers have different opinions. Section 285 StGB is only applicable on German territory. However, the organizers' servers and companies are located in countries where their services are legal (e.g. Malta). Many lawyers therefore assume that there is no criminal liability under German law. Others, however, are of the opinion that German law is applicable if the website of the respective internet casino can be accessed from Germany and has certain characteristics (language, currency, top-level domain)."

"Section 285 StGB is only applicable on German territory" - in my opinion, this answers the question of whether participation in online gambling is punishable if you are abroad.

apart from practical hurdles regarding registration with a german address. but in fact it is exactly that: a practical hurdle. if the casino accepts you as a player with a german residence and you play there from a computer in brazil, for example, then it is as legal as brazil says it is legal.

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dazzle_tea
Amateur
as far as the scenario of the remote-controlled computer is concerned, you would have to google the case law on physical vs. virtual presence and liability - but i'm too lazy to do that right now.

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dazzle_tea
Amateur
The quintessence:

If you want to be sure not to get a letter / charge whatever, invest in a TRUSTWORTHY VPN that does not fall under the 5- 9- 14 eyes rule, does not log data and works reliably (which includes a reliable kill switch), plays in casinos that allow VPN and uses crypto to pay (and avoids exchanges in this regard).

end of story.


explanations of the 5/9/14 eyes story here:
-- Link had to be removed due to external advertising (page with tons of Affiliate links) --

anyone who - like me - often lets their inner b*****d out or absolutely has to play in casino xyz, which unfortunately doesn't allow a VPN, will sooner or later get mail.

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Frankey
Experienced

hustlehoff wrote on April 26th, 2024 at 3:23 pm:
And how is that supposed to work? How would they know on which day and at what time your win was in the unlicensed online casino? That's a mystery to me. That would only be possible if they get the data directly from the online casino when you won there and at what time and then ask your Internet Provider whether you were online at home on that day and time and your traffic to the casino took place? WTF:D

The bank can, for example, report the transfer from the casino to the authorities if they suspect that it comes from a source that is not legal in Germany. Since everyone who opens an account, the bank itself, the financial manager of the casino and the casino itself have agreed to comply with the Act against money laundering and terrorist financing, the authorities get all the information they want. That's why casinos are not happy if you use VPN and somewhere in TgC it says that every player is obliged to follow the laws and orders of the local authorities where he is officially registered and to follow them before he plays in the casino.

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