In the end, I stick to the fact that you still have a better chance of winning something big at the higher RTP, even if you pay more per spin.
Of course, the higher RTP gives you a better chance of winning something big. We're with you on that, of course.
To your knowledge, is there any other country where slots are operated with this low RTP?
We are not aware of such a country in the online sector in Europe. There are markets where the RTP is 92 or 94%. But not below 90%.
And with regard to the tax, I think any taxation per spin is disproportionate... Why not simply on the Deposit?
Tax on stake makes no sense of course, tax on deposit would make just as little sense. The only thing from a normal economic point of view would be GGR - i.e. the actual revenues of the casinos.
In a supermarket, if you buy goods for 70 euros and pay with a 100 euro bill, the market is not taxed on 100 euros, but only on the 70... But taxing the stake is like taxing the market on 100 euros.
But one thing has become clear in recent years: the legislator does not want to change the tax base (stake). So there is only one thing left to do: lower the percentage. We are thinking about realistic options that could be implemented more quickly.
Stromberg wrote on 20.03.2024 at 10:08 am:
It's already clear to me why the state wants it that way😄
My question was more about the fact that StarGames has spoken out in favor of lower taxation per spin. And I find any taxation per spin disproportionate, simply because you basically pay tax on the same money umpteen times over.
The taxation of sports betting, among other things, has been cited as justification. There too, it is basically cheeky, but the hobby player doesn't notice it quite as much.
I agree with you when you see what this taxation per spin leads to from the player's point of view. It's unattractive at best and, as sorry as I am, 99% of the time it simply feels as if you're playing on cut machines under a DE license. Deducting the tax afterwards when paying out and having a good Rtp that is on a par with the other markets would even be preferable to these Deadspin machines that run at a reduced rate here...
StarGames_Official wrote on 20.03.2024 at 10:12 am:
Tax on bets makes no sense of course, tax on depositors would make just as little sense. The only thing from a normal economic point of view would be GGR - i.e. the actual revenues of the casinos.
In a supermarket, if you buy goods for 70 euros and pay with a 100 euro bill, the market is not taxed on 100 euros, but only on the 70... But taxing bets is like taxing the market on 100 euros.
But one thing has become clear in recent years: the legislator does not want to change the tax base (bet). So there is only one thing left to do: lower the percentage. We are thinking about realistic options that could be implemented more quickly.
Well, the 100 euros weren't spent in the supermarket either. It's basically just something to do with cash and that pretty much nobody pays exactly the right amount.
If I Deposit 100 euros at a casino, then I'm actually forced to use it at least once. At least with all those who work according to the money laundering rules. 😄
Are other taxes actually required? Value added tax? Entertainment tax? 😂
StarGames_Official wrote on 20/03/2024 09:10:
What you're talking about is the volatility, not the RTP. The volatility is not changed when the RTP is lowered. With some slots, smaller wins come more often, but with others, bigger wins come less often. This is the case with an RTP of 96% and the same with an RTP of 86%. Lowering the RTP reduces the chance of winning at all levels - not just the chance of the biggest win.
If we're being completely honest, we've been arguing for months, if not years, for just two changes that should be reconsidered in the regulations. These are:
Tax reduction for slots from 5% on bet to 3% or 4% on bet - that would help us increase the RTP. Maybe not to 96%, but even 92% would be a dream compared to 86-90%.
Increase the maximum bet per round. Players are looking for the big hit. Even if it happens, the maximum win currently pays out 5-10-15-20,000 times the bet in most slots. It's clear that 15,000 euros from one euro bet is a cool win. However, if the maximum bet were not just 1 euro but perhaps 2 or 5 euros, a hit like this could bring 75,000 euros. That would be better for players and providers alike and would be one less reason to want to play on the black market.
So with such demands, it's no wonder that nothing will change for the better. A tax per spin is absolutely disproportionate, regardless of whether it is 3.4 or 5%
Let's assume that an average of 1000 players are currently playing in all licensed casinos at 1 euro per spin. That should be a realistic figure, given the 83 million inhabitants and the huge marketing campaign. There are probably many more...
Then the state collects 53 Eur every 5 seconds, 636 Eur every minute, 38160 Eur every hour and 915840 Eur per day in spin tax.
Ok, you would have to deduct the 5 minute breaks, but there are thousands of players who play for less than 1 Eur.
So people think about it, just 1000 players with a bet of only 1 euro bring in almost 1 million euros in 24 hours for doing nothing. This million is already gone and will not go back into the payout of the slots.
Now the casinos also have to earn generously and the affiliates are also entitled to a small slice of the cake.
Be honest, what's left for the stupid player? It's not bad luck if you experience 50 dead spins in a row in a German casino.
I am well aware of the difference between volatility and RTP...
If you say that all win factors/probabilities of winning are reduced equally when the RTP is lowered, that may be true. But it doesn't seem that way when playing.
Are you sure that all providers handle it this way? Or do some of them adjust the winning probabilities a little more flexibly?
I mean, of course, if an already unlikely event like a x1000 hit becomes even 7 percent less likely, then you can easily get the wrong impression.
At the end of the day, I still think that with the higher RTP you still have a better chance of winning something big, even if you pay more per spin.
And I think the majority of players pay out their money when it's worth it, which is usually the case after good hits.
To your knowledge, is there any other country where slots are operated with this low RTP?
And regarding the tax, I think any taxation per spin is disproportionate... Why not just on the depositor?
I agree with you on everything but a small correction: 7% Rtp difference does not reduce your chances of winning by 7% but by 300-400%
So with such demands, it's no wonder that nothing will change for the better. Taxation per spin is absolutely disproportionate, regardless of whether it's 3.4 or 5%
You can of course demand that the tax base be changed to GGR. This has also been demanded several times, submitted to the EU Court of Justice, etc. But it will not be changed. If the legislator sticks to it, then it sticks to it.
We have listed demands here that would be realistic. If the basis cannot be changed, then the percentage values must be lowered.
Of course, you can also demand a fixed income of 10,000 euros per month from the state for all residents. You will then also know how realistic this is.
StarGames_Official wrote on 20/03/2024 09:10:
What you're talking about is the volatility, not the RTP. The volatility is not changed when the RTP is lowered. With some slots, smaller wins come more often, but with others, bigger wins come less often. This is the case with an RTP of 96% and the same with an RTP of 86%. Lowering the RTP reduces the chance of winning at all levels - not just the chance of the biggest win.
If we're being completely honest, we've been arguing for months, if not years, for just two changes that should be reconsidered in the regulations. These are:
Tax reduction for slots from 5% on bet to 3% or 4% on bet - that would help us increase the RTP. Maybe not to 96%, but even 92% would be a dream compared to 86-90%.
Increase the maximum bet per round. Players are looking for the big hit. Even if it happens, the maximum win currently pays out 5-10-15-20,000 times the bet in most slots. It's clear that 15,000 euros from one euro bet is a cool win. However, if the maximum bet were not just 1 euro but perhaps 2 or 5 euros, a hit like this could bring 75,000 euros. That would be better for players and providers alike and would be one less reason to want to play on the black market.
In order to guide players from the black market to the legal offer, people first have to get the impression that they are being taken seriously and not treated like little children
Then you have to adjust the market equally means no 5 second rule and no maximum 1€ and an RTP where it is not bottomlessly outrageous
If these 3 points are implemented together, it stops calling the DE license a rip-off and you can play normally because I can't say it often enough it makes no sense if everyone is allowed to gamble a normal € 1000 and then you are told how to gamble it! You don't have these rules in a gambling hall or casino and our politicians need to understand that
Just changing the maximum €1 might help a little but the biggest point is these slow, slow games and this shit where you download autocklickers to have autostart because who seriously sits in front of the PC and presses start manually 4,000 times when they want to wager a bonus because sometimes it has to go faster and that includes stopped spins and autostart
And even if that sounds stupid you all can't call yourselves competitive compared to international providers and to put it even more stupidly your offer (by your I mean all DE providers) is a truncated version and simply feels incapacitating as if you completely deny independent thinking and acting and customers just don't like that because gambling is for adults and what adult likes to be patronized like a child?
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Of course, the higher RTP gives you a better chance of winning something big. We're with you on that, of course.
We are not aware of such a country in the online sector in Europe. There are markets where the RTP is 92 or 94%. But not below 90%.
Tax on stake makes no sense of course, tax on deposit would make just as little sense. The only thing from a normal economic point of view would be GGR - i.e. the actual revenues of the casinos.
In a supermarket, if you buy goods for 70 euros and pay with a 100 euro bill, the market is not taxed on 100 euros, but only on the 70... But taxing the stake is like taxing the market on 100 euros.
But one thing has become clear in recent years: the legislator does not want to change the tax base (stake). So there is only one thing left to do: lower the percentage. We are thinking about realistic options that could be implemented more quickly.
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StarGames experience
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mtorero
I agree with you when you see what this taxation per spin leads to from the player's point of view. It's unattractive at best and, as sorry as I am, 99% of the time it simply feels as if you're playing on cut machines under a DE license. Deducting the tax afterwards when paying out and having a good Rtp that is on a par with the other markets would even be preferable to these Deadspin machines that run at a reduced rate here...
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StarGames experience
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Well, the 100 euros weren't spent in the supermarket either. It's basically just something to do with cash and that pretty much nobody pays exactly the right amount.
If I Deposit 100 euros at a casino, then I'm actually forced to use it at least once. At least with all those who work according to the money laundering rules. 😄
Are other taxes actually required? Value added tax? Entertainment tax? 😂
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StarGames experience
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So with such demands, it's no wonder that nothing will change for the better. A tax per spin is absolutely disproportionate, regardless of whether it is 3.4 or 5%
Let's assume that an average of 1000 players are currently playing in all licensed casinos at 1 euro per spin. That should be a realistic figure, given the 83 million inhabitants and the huge marketing campaign. There are probably many more...
Then the state collects 53 Eur every 5 seconds, 636 Eur every minute, 38160 Eur every hour and 915840 Eur per day in spin tax.
Ok, you would have to deduct the 5 minute breaks, but there are thousands of players who play for less than 1 Eur.
So people think about it, just 1000 players with a bet of only 1 euro bring in almost 1 million euros in 24 hours for doing nothing. This million is already gone and will not go back into the payout of the slots.
Now the casinos also have to earn generously and the affiliates are also entitled to a small slice of the cake.
Be honest, what's left for the stupid player? It's not bad luck if you experience 50 dead spins in a row in a German casino.
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StarGames experience
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I agree with you on everything but a small correction: 7% Rtp difference does not reduce your chances of winning by 7% but by 300-400%
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Yes, that's right, that was wrongly expressed.
Example 96 percent compared to 89 percent, i.e. 4 cents loss to 11 cents loss per euro stake, loss almost 3x as high.
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You can of course demand that the tax base be changed to GGR. This has also been demanded several times, submitted to the EU Court of Justice, etc. But it will not be changed. If the legislator sticks to it, then it sticks to it.
We have listed demands here that would be realistic. If the basis cannot be changed, then the percentage values must be lowered.
Of course, you can also demand a fixed income of 10,000 euros per month from the state for all residents. You will then also know how realistic this is.
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StarGames experience
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In that case, I would gladly accept the tax per spin... 😂
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In order to guide players from the black market to the legal offer, people first have to get the impression that they are being taken seriously and not treated like little children
Then you have to adjust the market equally means no 5 second rule and no maximum 1€ and an RTP where it is not bottomlessly outrageous
If these 3 points are implemented together, it stops calling the DE license a rip-off and you can play normally because I can't say it often enough it makes no sense if everyone is allowed to gamble a normal € 1000 and then you are told how to gamble it! You don't have these rules in a gambling hall or casino and our politicians need to understand that
Just changing the maximum €1 might help a little but the biggest point is these slow, slow games and this shit where you download autocklickers to have autostart because who seriously sits in front of the PC and presses start manually 4,000 times when they want to wager a bonus because sometimes it has to go faster and that includes stopped spins and autostart
And even if that sounds stupid you all can't call yourselves competitive compared to international providers and to put it even more stupidly your offer (by your I mean all DE providers) is a truncated version and simply feels incapacitating as if you completely deny independent thinking and acting and customers just don't like that because gambling is for adults and what adult likes to be patronized like a child?
This post has been translated automatically
StarGames experience
Nobody has liked this post so far
This post has been translated automatically