All untested people, regardless of vaccination status, who participated in mass events are responsible for spreading the virus!
It's amazing that you look for culprits yourself and blame those who have made use of their democratic right to demonstrate. Without the massive resistance, which was also shown among others on the streets, we would still have the worst conditions.
I am myself unvaccinated and measure critic or better said advocate for democracy, the fundamental rights and human rights since day one. I was insulted, defamed, ostracized and even physically attacked several times. And now you are supposed to forget all that? Certainly not.
Those who joyfully participated should think about how their values such as democracy and fundamental rights really stand. What you can clearly take away from this time: People are still very susceptible to totalitarian structures and are eager to join in if they are given an enemy to vent their anger. These are the same people who are outraged by trivialities and who use fine words like the rule of law or human rights only as empty phrases.
A reappraisal is due and a serious and full apology is more than necessary. And there is nothing to trivialize, even if many of those who have dutifully participated cannot even imagine what it is like to be marginalized, to lose one's job, to be excluded from society and to be insulted.
And no, I am not quiet. It has been tried for 3 years now to forbid my mouth and far too many aggrieved people even now do not dare to speak their minds freely. Many still try to make the others understand with gentle words what they have done to them. But if someone hits me 20 times in the face, then I also do not lovingly explain to him that this is not quite okay and he has perhaps overreacted a bit.
In Austria there was a lockdown only for unvaccinated people and a vaccination obligation was decided by almost all parties. The EU had thought about introducing a vaccination obligation, which one has to owe only to the large resistance in Austria that it has not come so far, because thereby Austria has burst as a test balloon. It was seriously accepted by the broad masses that one could only participate in social life with the proof of a physical characteristic.
The proponents were wrong. Period. And this is not about the content of Corona itself. Even if everything had happened the way all the "experts" said, that would not be a reason to establish a totalitarian system. You can't talk about democracy on the one hand and deny other people their rights on the other. You can't talk about freedom of speech and at the same time suppress all critical voices.
Now the time has come for everyone to reflect honestly on their own position during this time and, if they come to the conclusion that they have gone along with it, to ask themselves why and why they did not recognize it.
Is quite amazing that you yourself look for culprits and blame those who have made use of their democratic right to demonstrate. Without the massive resistance, which was shown just also unterem other on the street, we would now still have the worst conditions.
I am myself unvaccinated and measure critic or better said advocate for democracy, the fundamental rights and human rights since day one. I was insulted, defamed, ostracized and even physically attacked several times. And now you are supposed to forget all that? Certainly not.
Those who joyfully participated should think about how their values such as democracy and fundamental rights really stand. What one can clearly take away from this time: People are still very susceptible to totalitarian structures and are eager to join in if they are given an enemy to vent their anger. These are the same people who are outraged by trivialities and who use fine words like the rule of law or human rights only as empty phrases.
A reappraisal is due and a serious and full apology is more than necessary. And there is nothing to trivialize, even if many who have dutifully participated cannot imagine what it is like to be marginalized, to lose one's job, to be excluded from society and to be insulted.
And no, I am not quiet. It has been tried for 3 years now to forbid my mouth and far too many aggrieved people even now do not dare to speak their minds freely. Many still try to make the others understand with gentle words what they have done to them. But if someone hits me 20 times in the face, then I also do not lovingly explain to him that this is not quite okay and he has perhaps overreacted a bit.
In Austria there was a lockdown only for unvaccinated people and a vaccination obligation was decided by almost all parties. The EU had thought about introducing a vaccination obligation, which one has to owe only to the large resistance in Austria that it has not come so far, because thereby Austria has burst as a test balloon. It was seriously accepted by the broad masses that one could only participate in social life with the proof of a physical characteristic.
The proponents were wrong. Period. And this is not about the content of Corona itself. Even if everything had happened as all the "experts" said, that would not be a reason to establish a totalitarian system. You can't talk about democracy on the one hand and deny other people their rights on the other. You can't talk about freedom of speech and at the same time suppress all critical voices.
Now the time has come for everyone to reflect honestly on their own position during this time and, if they come to the conclusion that they have gone along with it, to ask themselves why and why they did not recognize it.
A very bad time... I'm glad it's over.
--- comparison has been removed ---
I endured it until January 2022, then I had myself vaccinated, just for my mother's love. Because in my family and relatives also all went crazy. In retrospect, I am annoyed that I did not hold out. Fortunately, it was only one vaccination, never again.
From the beginning I took the standpoint that everyone should do what they think is right for their health, masks, keeping their distance, etc. Everything is ok. If you want to be vaccinated, you are welcome to do so. Even this exclusionary 2G and 3G could somehow be swallowed for a while, but when it started to interfere with people's personal freedom of choice regarding their health, that just went too far.
And now? nobody cares anymore! No more daily horror reports and continuous incidence loops and the panic is gone again. There were never any piles of corpses on the streets, the hospitalization rate never even came close to a critical state. In the end, those who have always profited anyway have profited again. Pharma, drugs, masks, tests.... The money has only so bubbled with some...
The media and politics have controlled this game so panic driven, when I think of all these MPKs, any freely invented limits that were presented in neat PowerPoints... etc... Very very sad how it all went!
As I said, I do not deny the virus, there were certainly deaths and serious cases, experienced myself in my own environment. But this artificial exaggerated scaremongering and compulsive paternalism of free people, there comes me the vomit of the day before yesterday high!
I admire the people who have remained steadfast and have not submitted to any constraints.
With all justified criticism of the handling of the topic in politics, media and living together, one must think over some comparisons also first and not take over, because they were drawn in the alternative media of the often... (I do not want to insinuate you now, perhaps this is also your personal feeling and you have drawn this questionable comparison of your own accord).
2020 was btw still as good as no one vaccinated.
But overall it is true that the handling zt was completely inappropriate.
With all justified criticism of the handling of the topic in politics, media and coexistence, you have to think about some comparisons and not take over, because they were drawn in the alternative media of the often... ( I do not want to insinuate you now, maybe this is also your personal feeling and you have drawn this questionable comparison by itself).
2020 was btw still as good as no one vaccinated.
But overall it is true that the handling zt was completely inappropriate.
I had drawn this comparison out of my own feelings. This has nothing to do with alternative media. Then is namely exactly what then also always happened. That one is then immediately put down as a lateral thinker or conspirator if one has a somewhat more contrary opinion on the subject of Corona. As said, there are anyway different opinions to the complex. Months in the own family experienced. But the extreme in one or the other direction, as it happened partly. That was a no go.
I said myself, protect and be careful, was and is important with this virus. 2G and 3G I had no problem with, because I don't go anywhere anyway. But anything beyond that, forcing people to vaccinate, which many have demanded, that was a step too far.
refucs wrote on 09.02.2023 at 08:51:
I had made that comparison based on my own feelings. This has nothing to do with alternative media. Then is namely exactly what then also always happened. That one is then immediately put down as a lateral thinker or conspirator if one has times a somewhat more contrary opinion on the subject of Corona. As said, there are anyway different opinions to the complex. Months in the own family experienced. But the extreme in one or the other direction, as it happened partly. That was a no go.
I said myself, protect and be careful, was and is important with this virus. 2G and 3G I had no problem with, because I don't go anywhere anyway. But anything beyond that, forcing people to vaccinate, which many have called for, that was a step too far.
Yes, I personally, although I have advocated vaccination, was actually also always for a 3g solution instead of 2 g, there was never anything against it.
Did not want to claim now that you parrot anything, if that's the comparison that comes to mind, okay... I find him so abstruse, if you think what would have been the next steps if you draw a comparison to the N**i era, that I thought you can only have read on the relevant pages somewhere.there it would be used in the Twitter and Facebook comments often etc...
I also didn't mean at all that you are a "schwurbler" ( terrible expression too 🤣) if you read alternative media. I just call them that now. I look in mache myself with pleasure purely. Am perhaps only with approx max 20 percent of the topics of similar opinion, but there are always just thought-provoking impulses and points of view that one had not on the screen... And then there is of course also a lot of cheap polemics, half-truths and propaganda, similar to the mainstream media. It is difficult to create a neutral picture without being taken in by one side. I think it's just as wrong not to read media with a different opinion across the board and to devalue them as cross-thinkers or swindlers, as I think it's wrong to say I don't watch TV anymore and don't read normal newspapers, they're all liars... So no one looks beyond the edge of their plate and that's fatal.
Personally, I have experienced no cross-border incidents related to the topic of vaccination, except for moderate or normal discussions among friends. Neither in the family, nor in the circle of friends and acquaintances and also not at work. And not because everyone had been vaccinated, but because everyone (mostly) dealt with it objectively. Perhaps that is also the reason why I do not see the whole thing as dramatically as someone who may have had a different experience.
Stromberg wrote on 09.02.2023 at 09:17:
Yes, I personally, although I was in favor of vaccination, was actually also always for a 3g solution instead of 2 g, there was never anything against it.
Did not want to claim now that you parrot anything, if that is the comparison that comes to mind, okay... I find it so abstruse, if you consider what should have been the next steps if you draw a comparison to the N**i era, that I thought you can only have read on the relevant sites somewhere.there it would be used in the Twitter and Facebook comments often etc...
I also didn't mean at all that you are a "schwurbler" ( terrible expression too 🤣) if you read alternative media. I just call them that now. I look in mache myself with pleasure purely. Am perhaps only with approx max 20 percent of the topics of similar opinion, but there are always just thought-provoking impulses and points of view that one had not on the screen... And then there is of course also a lot of cheap polemics, half-truths and propaganda, similar to the mainstream media. It is difficult to create a neutral picture without being taken in by one side. I think it's just as wrong not to read media with a different opinion across the board and to devalue them as cross-thinkers or swindlers, as I think it's wrong to say I don't watch TV anymore and don't read normal newspapers, they're all liars... So no one looks beyond the edge of their plate and that's fatal.
Personally, I have experienced no cross-border incidents related to the topic of vaccination, except for moderate or normal discussions among friends. Neither in the family, nor in the circle of friends and acquaintances and also not at work. And not because everyone had been vaccinated, but because everyone (mostly) dealt with it objectively. Maybe that's also the reason why I don't see the whole thing as dramatically as someone who might have had a different experience.
Yes, as you say, I actually got through this time well, including the social environment. You could talk normally about everything. These discussions pro and contra were much too annoying for me in the long run anyway. That's why I'm also glad that this topic has disappeared from the scene.
Yes as you say, actually got through that time incl social well too. You could talk normally about everything. For me these discussions pro and contra were anyway in the long run much too annoying. That's why I'm also glad that this topic has disappeared from the scene.
upola wrote on 09.02.2023 at 09:06: But don't you run a certain Risk with every vaccination.
In principle, yes. It's just that vaccines are usually tested for much longer, so the risk is better known....
When it comes to concerns about vaccines, there is one argument that cannot be refuted, and that is that the substances have never been observed in use over many years. Therefore, one cannot say with certainty, based on experience, whether long-term harm can be ruled out. One can make considerations about how fast this and that is degraded etc.... But nobody has made the experience.
Then one can argue like Scholz and say 1 billion people have received the vaccination, one can see that it is safe. But the usual test procedure for vaccines has not yet been run through...
Nevertheless, also because of the decades of research on MRNA technology, I felt, without being a doctor or scientist, that this residual risk was so manageable for me that I still had no concerns. But I can understand if you have some.
And there I come again to a point where I distinguish between people who have serious medical concerns, and people who generally see a conspiracy in everything, whether out of frustration, or because you get into something... I do not know. And worst people who only briefly see any out of context tables or pictures on Facebook, these probably do not even understand let alone question... (best maybe on Youtube, there is not so much time to look at something exactly 😄)... and then form their opinion from it...
When something like this is discussed here I always notice how many thoughts about it have actually collected in my head and how hard I do myself to judge the whole event😄
I'm once after a long party with the train home since Corona had just started.da is so one with mask and gloves got on the already had the disinfectant spray in hand when entering and has sprayed the whole train vollgesprüht.Total stupid🤣
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It's amazing that you look for culprits yourself and blame those who have made use of their democratic right to demonstrate. Without the massive resistance, which was also shown among others on the streets, we would still have the worst conditions.
I am myself unvaccinated and measure critic or better said advocate for democracy, the fundamental rights and human rights since day one. I was insulted, defamed, ostracized and even physically attacked several times. And now you are supposed to forget all that? Certainly not.
Those who joyfully participated should think about how their values such as democracy and fundamental rights really stand. What you can clearly take away from this time: People are still very susceptible to totalitarian structures and are eager to join in if they are given an enemy to vent their anger. These are the same people who are outraged by trivialities and who use fine words like the rule of law or human rights only as empty phrases.
A reappraisal is due and a serious and full apology is more than necessary. And there is nothing to trivialize, even if many of those who have dutifully participated cannot even imagine what it is like to be marginalized, to lose one's job, to be excluded from society and to be insulted.
And no, I am not quiet. It has been tried for 3 years now to forbid my mouth and far too many aggrieved people even now do not dare to speak their minds freely. Many still try to make the others understand with gentle words what they have done to them. But if someone hits me 20 times in the face, then I also do not lovingly explain to him that this is not quite okay and he has perhaps overreacted a bit.
In Austria there was a lockdown only for unvaccinated people and a vaccination obligation was decided by almost all parties. The EU had thought about introducing a vaccination obligation, which one has to owe only to the large resistance in Austria that it has not come so far, because thereby Austria has burst as a test balloon. It was seriously accepted by the broad masses that one could only participate in social life with the proof of a physical characteristic.
The proponents were wrong. Period. And this is not about the content of Corona itself. Even if everything had happened the way all the "experts" said, that would not be a reason to establish a totalitarian system. You can't talk about democracy on the one hand and deny other people their rights on the other. You can't talk about freedom of speech and at the same time suppress all critical voices.
Now the time has come for everyone to reflect honestly on their own position during this time and, if they come to the conclusion that they have gone along with it, to ask themselves why and why they did not recognize it.
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A very bad time... I'm glad it's over.
--- comparison has been removed ---
I endured it until January 2022, then I had myself vaccinated, just for my mother's love. Because in my family and relatives also all went crazy. In retrospect, I am annoyed that I did not hold out. Fortunately, it was only one vaccination, never again.
From the beginning I took the standpoint that everyone should do what they think is right for their health, masks, keeping their distance, etc. Everything is ok. If you want to be vaccinated, you are welcome to do so. Even this exclusionary 2G and 3G could somehow be swallowed for a while, but when it started to interfere with people's personal freedom of choice regarding their health, that just went too far.
And now? nobody cares anymore! No more daily horror reports and continuous incidence loops and the panic is gone again. There were never any piles of corpses on the streets, the hospitalization rate never even came close to a critical state. In the end, those who have always profited anyway have profited again. Pharma, drugs, masks, tests.... The money has only so bubbled with some...
The media and politics have controlled this game so panic driven, when I think of all these MPKs, any freely invented limits that were presented in neat PowerPoints... etc... Very very sad how it all went!
As I said, I do not deny the virus, there were certainly deaths and serious cases, experienced myself in my own environment. But this artificial exaggerated scaremongering and compulsive paternalism of free people, there comes me the vomit of the day before yesterday high!
I admire the people who have remained steadfast and have not submitted to any constraints.
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--- comment was removed (see quote) ---
With all justified criticism of the handling of the topic in politics, media and living together, one must think over some comparisons also first and not take over, because they were drawn in the alternative media of the often... (I do not want to insinuate you now, perhaps this is also your personal feeling and you have drawn this questionable comparison of your own accord).
2020 was btw still as good as no one vaccinated.
But overall it is true that the handling zt was completely inappropriate.
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Langhans
I had drawn this comparison out of my own feelings. This has nothing to do with alternative media. Then is namely exactly what then also always happened. That one is then immediately put down as a lateral thinker or conspirator if one has a somewhat more contrary opinion on the subject of Corona. As said, there are anyway different opinions to the complex. Months in the own family experienced. But the extreme in one or the other direction, as it happened partly. That was a no go.
I said myself, protect and be careful, was and is important with this virus. 2G and 3G I had no problem with, because I don't go anywhere anyway. But anything beyond that, forcing people to vaccinate, which many have demanded, that was a step too far.
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Yes, I personally, although I have advocated vaccination, was actually also always for a 3g solution instead of 2 g, there was never anything against it.
Did not want to claim now that you parrot anything, if that's the comparison that comes to mind, okay... I find him so abstruse, if you think what would have been the next steps if you draw a comparison to the N**i era, that I thought you can only have read on the relevant pages somewhere.there it would be used in the Twitter and Facebook comments often etc...
I also didn't mean at all that you are a "schwurbler" ( terrible expression too 🤣) if you read alternative media. I just call them that now. I look in mache myself with pleasure purely. Am perhaps only with approx max 20 percent of the topics of similar opinion, but there are always just thought-provoking impulses and points of view that one had not on the screen... And then there is of course also a lot of cheap polemics, half-truths and propaganda, similar to the mainstream media. It is difficult to create a neutral picture without being taken in by one side. I think it's just as wrong not to read media with a different opinion across the board and to devalue them as cross-thinkers or swindlers, as I think it's wrong to say I don't watch TV anymore and don't read normal newspapers, they're all liars... So no one looks beyond the edge of their plate and that's fatal.
Personally, I have experienced no cross-border incidents related to the topic of vaccination, except for moderate or normal discussions among friends. Neither in the family, nor in the circle of friends and acquaintances and also not at work. And not because everyone had been vaccinated, but because everyone (mostly) dealt with it objectively. Perhaps that is also the reason why I do not see the whole thing as dramatically as someone who may have had a different experience.
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Yes, as you say, I actually got through this time well, including the social environment. You could talk normally about everything. These discussions pro and contra were much too annoying for me in the long run anyway. That's why I'm also glad that this topic has disappeared from the scene.
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Absolutely, me too.
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Hanshanshans
In principle, yes. It's just that vaccines are usually tested for much longer, so the risk is better known....
When it comes to concerns about vaccines, there is one argument that cannot be refuted, and that is that the substances have never been observed in use over many years. Therefore, one cannot say with certainty, based on experience, whether long-term harm can be ruled out. One can make considerations about how fast this and that is degraded etc.... But nobody has made the experience.
Then one can argue like Scholz and say 1 billion people have received the vaccination, one can see that it is safe. But the usual test procedure for vaccines has not yet been run through...
Nevertheless, also because of the decades of research on MRNA technology, I felt, without being a doctor or scientist, that this residual risk was so manageable for me that I still had no concerns. But I can understand if you have some.
And there I come again to a point where I distinguish between people who have serious medical concerns, and people who generally see a conspiracy in everything, whether out of frustration, or because you get into something... I do not know. And worst people who only briefly see any out of context tables or pictures on Facebook, these probably do not even understand let alone question... (best maybe on Youtube, there is not so much time to look at something exactly 😄)... and then form their opinion from it...
When something like this is discussed here I always notice how many thoughts about it have actually collected in my head and how hard I do myself to judge the whole event😄
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